Some 15 years later, how do you feel about Eminem?

[Svnla]

We figured out a while ago, SheHateMe is an idiot.

Sp33Demon droppin' knowledge bombs....on deaf, stubborn ears unfortunately.

Word. :biggrin:

You guys better watch out or the lowlife snitch would go to the mods, lie to the teeth and put words into your mouth and try to get you into trouble. Peace, yo!

How is my Engrish? Call 1-800-555- FUGM. At least I don't have a reputation as a clueless and ignorant moron like you. IIRC, one of the posters in this form has a signature line of "Ugly can be fix but stupid is forever". You can move a moron out of the ghetto but you can't remove the ghettoness and stupidity out of the moron.

True, so true.

 

[SheHateMe]

Ah, the broken-English-speaking-racist-immigrant-Southerner is here.


Hey!



...I'm sure you're working on a huge post about something that happened months ago to derail the thread.

 

[AstroManLuca]

I care as much about him now as I have at any other point in my life.

 

[SheHateMe]

I'll just wait until SP33Demon responds. It's pretty childish to give in to people who haven't contributed to the discussion but have come here to flame and troll.

 

[Arkaign]

I used to really hate Eminem back in that first year, mainly because that song bugged the crap out of me.

He's grown on me a lot over the years even though I've never bought anything of his. I prefer Biggie, Tupac, even Common just on personal taste, but can't deny that Eminem is truly skilled. The guy was really immature in a lot of ways, but I think a lot of people who grew up in those shoes had a hard time of it. He is immensely skilled, and he definitely will be remembered for sure.

As for what makes him special, I think it's his way of putting genuine attitude into the characters he portrays, fragments of himself amplified into fast-paced lyrical flourishes of genius.

Top 5, maybe? Definitely top 10 in my book. And race got nothin to do with it.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

"Greatest Rapper of all time"

Yea...ok.

How did he thrust Rap into the Mainstream? Rap was already mainstream by the time he popped up. If it wasnt...who did Eminem pull his influences from? You can't tell me he just up and decided to rap without hearing rap when he was younger. Rap was underground in the 80's. By the time the 90's rolled around it was getting major play on Radio stations and it became somewhat of a sub culture in the black community. There have been COUNTLESS numbers of legendary rappers in the game...for those of you who don't know shit about Rap or Hip Hop..I'm sure you know about Run DMC at least. Public Enemy, Rappers Delight, The Fresh Prince, Grand Master Flash....etc.

The number 1 thing Eminem had going for him was that he was a white rapper that wasn't shit (Vanilla Ice/Marky Mark/ Does Rico Swave count?Snow....nuff said). That is where his acclaim came from, that's why he was all over MTV. People couldn't stop talking about Slim Shady. I was just a kid back then and I came home to watch "TRL" everyday after school and EVERYDAY they were talking about Eminem.

The only thing he mainstreamed for Rap was the acceptance of White MCs in the game.


How many of you are actually Rap fans?

Rap and the more musical and friendly, Hip-hop was most certainly not "mainstream", listened to by the status quo, until Eminem. Eminem was the very first rapper who consistently got in the top of the pop charts as anything other than a novelty (Rapper's Delight, Ice Ice Baby). Rap in the 90s was a sub-genre of R&B (still is), and was only popular among young minorities and white kids trying to piss off their parents (you bought a guitar to punish your ma). It was none other than Eminem who brought the genre to the mainstream, in fact, to the very top of the charts. Since then, hip-hop influences have slowly invaded pop music, to the point now that current pop is somewhere between R&B, Disco, and Hip-hop, with many mixing in some prog rock and electronica, lot's of hybrids.

Where did he get his influence from? To me it was always obvious that it was The Beastie Boys, NWA, Ice T, etc, taking his lyrical clues from the BB, and his musical clues from the gangsta side of things. Later in his career he would mix and match, and infuse even more varied sounds into his songs. Here's a quote referring to The Beastie Boys.

I would never fucking put them in a rhyme. I don’t even want them wondering if I was trying to dis them. I got a lot of love for them. I grew up on that shit. The other rappers... whatever.​

I'd also argue that Rap was not underground in the 80s. Rap was very above ground since Run DMC, the Fat Boys, and LL Cool J began to popularize the genre on MTV. NWA, Public Enemy, 2Live Crew, Ice T and others began to cultivate a new kind of rap music, which also began to cross boundaries becoming popular by teens with an appeal to those into counter-culture. The new Gangsta Rap continued to grow in popularity all through the 90s as it spread to movies and television, but no rap was mainstream until at least the end of the 90s, but it wasn't underground either, not since the 70s when it was confined to live club performances.

I think it would be pretty easy to count up all the legendary rappers.

You're contention that Eminem's popularity is solely due to the color of his skin is absolutely preposterous! What most people, including myself, noticed about him was his incredible flair with words, complex rhyme-schemes, far larger vocabulary, larger set of subjects, and ability to get it all out of his mouth at an often times torrid pace. This coupled with his singular ability for shock and controversy and wise choices in the studio regarding the actual music were what gave him such a huge and devoted following from such a diverse audience. Talk about childish... By your own admission you were a child at the time, so save us the history lessons and your pathetic character assassinations. You weren't really there.

 

[JM Aggie08]

*SNIP*

And now we wait :hmm:

 

[SheHateMe]

I'd also argue that Rap was not underground in the 80s. Rap was very above ground since Run DMC, the Fat Boys, and LL Cool J began to popularize the genre on MTV. NWA, Public Enemy, 2Live Crew, Ice T and others began to cultivate a new kind of rap music, which also began to cross boundaries becoming popular by teens with an appeal to those into counter-culture. The new Gangsta Rap continued to grow in popularity all through the 90s as it spread to movies and television, but no rap was mainstream until at least the end of the 90s, but it wasn't underground either, not since the 70s when it was confined to live club performances.

I think it would be pretty easy to count up all the legendary rappers.

It actually wasn't until the late 80's when people were really getting into it. Before then, Rap was something you did outside in a circle with your friends. Radio stations wouldn't play it. When Def Jam came around, it was picking up a LOT of momentum as far as breaking into the mainstream. Hip Hop wasn't widely accepted either. The 80's were really the best time for these two genres. There was so much talent, and when people caught on it blew up in a way.

"Underground" does not mean "not popular".

My mom was HEAVILY into Hip Hop and she graduated HS in 84'. She was there, she felt it, she was into the style, etc. She still has Tapes and some of her silly 80's photos. She snuck out of the house to go to concerts, etc.

You're contention that Eminem's popularity is solely due to the color of his skin is absolutely preposterous!

I don't care if Eminem is white, I am just saying that a lot of the attention he got as a new artist was because he was white. White rappers are a dime a dozen. He was extremely gimmicky when he first came out. But, he was serious. He wasn't like Riff Raff. People took him seriously, because he could keep up with other rappers. We have never seen a rapper like Eminem. He is really the only white mainstream rapper that has lasted a long time.

What most people, including myself, noticed about him was his incredible flair with words, complex rhyme-schemes, far larger vocabulary, larger set of subjects, and ability to get it all out of his mouth at an often times torrid pace. This coupled with his singular ability for shock and controversy and wise choices in the studio regarding the actual music were what gave him such a huge and devoted following from such a diverse audience.

And I can think of 10 other rappers that have the same skill. Not all rappers are like Lil Wayne. Many rappers have insane lyrical skills...but they are not mainstream. They go largely unnoticed by people who think Eminem is the one and only truth. People who aren't into rap, etc. I asked before if there was a specific thing Eminem has that other rappers don't. Nobody could answer.

In my opinion, when you are great at something nobody else can do better than you in....you're the best. That's it.

Talk about childish... By your own admission you were a child at the time, so save us the history lessons and your pathetic character assassinations. You weren't really there.

So, because I was a child when Eminem debuted and non-existent during the birth of Hip-Hop/Rap , that means I couldn't have possibly been into 80's and early 90's Rap and Hip Hop?

What a childish thing to say.

I didn't have to be "there" (and I'm assuming you mean the 80's).

So, because I won't concede that Eminem is the best rapper ever its a "pathetic character assassination"? Oh please.

I was "there" when Eminem debuted, his music we being targeted towards me on all the music shows. TRL, BET, VH1 countdowns.... Young people carried that dude. I watched TRL and 106 & Park every damn day after school and he was on non-stop.

And now we wait :hmm:

And you still have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

 

[Svnla]

Heavy pwnage are being given out by Sphinx and Sp33.


FYI, you can't teach stupid. ROTFLMAO.

 

[SheHateMe]

You're a little too old to be using the word "pwnage".

 

[JM Aggie08]

\And you still have nothing to contribute to the discussion.

Only here for you now, sweety :wub:

 

[SheHateMe]

Only here for you now, sweety :wub:

That's cute, I love you too. :wub:


I respect you for your fantastic English speaking skills though. Major props.

 

[SP33Demon]

Ahhh, I never said Eminem hasn't received props from anyone. But, whatever. If he didn't get props from other rappers, nobody would be talking about him, now would we?

I said he wasn't the best, so you show me a wall of text of people showing him love. OK.

I don't need you to educate me on rap or rappers, I listen to the stuff all day.



Thinking in terms of rappers who have a lot of sales, yes...Jay-Z would be the only rapper that could come in second. I don't know why that would be funny to you anyway, Jay-Z was SOLID in his earlier days. He still has some Jams...even if he's delivering shitty lines in Justin Timberlake's new single.

And you KNOW that if Eminem looked like Nas and were out back in early 2000 rapping violent lyrics about his mother and his daughters mother he would not have blown up at all. People often characterize Rap as violent vitrol and that is exactly what Em was spitting when he first came out..and then he had the weird personalities....

If he looked like anyone else in the rap game, how do you think it would have turned out for him? He would be just another rapper. Like I said before, he is in his own class. He can do things that other rappers cannot do.

If he were some black dude he would have been charactized as a gangster rapper based on his angry lyrics alone. The mainstream industry would have slept on him.

He had the grittiness of a black rapper in a white package. Who could do that back then? I think everyone was still recovering from Marky Mark and Vanilla Ice.


Nas (for example) is an amazing MC, tracks like "World is Yours" and "Get Down" as pretty much legendary Nas tracks....yet, he doesn't have a single Grammy. Eminem has what...13?

Why do you think that is? Hint: It ain't because Nas doesn't have several records on par with Eminem's... Em gets his own special class. Nobody in rap looks like him. There are several people in this thread that claim they don't like rap yet, they listen to Eminem....so how many people do you think that bought his albums and contributed to his success are the same way?

Nas had a killer album this year...and he wasn't nominated for a single thing at the Grammy's yet pop rappers like Macklemore and Mac Miller would be more likely to get a nod before Nas. would.

Again..those two have the same type of fans that would say they don't like rap but listen to Macklemore or Mac Miller.

Come on, you didn't really digest some of the statements by his peers. Drake (arguably the most popular rapper today behind L.Wayne/Jigga) and MGK claimed he was the best alive. In fact, Drake said in 2010 that Eminem was the Greatest of All Time: http://dimewars.com/HipHopNews/Drak...eleaseID=52144ab9-e8cc-4812-b2b5-5d3c11b41103

Kid Capri says Eminem is Greatest of All Time:
http://marshallmathers.tumblr.com/post/16878463538/kid-capri-eminem-is-the-greatest-of-all-time

The Game, while his quote didn't say it above, has said Em is the "Greatest Alive":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbHPpdPhlic

Lupe's statement in the prior post can also be interpreted as "best alive", including statements from Kendrick Lamar, Rakim and Tech n9ne.

Nas stopped short of saying best alive but used the word "amazing".

Kanye West names Lil Wayne the current number one but also added Eminem and Jay-Z to the "greatest rappers of all time" group.

"Yeah, I just think... him and [Jay-Z] and [Eminem] and certain people are just the greatest rappers of all time," he said. (Billboard)

http://www.sohh.com/2013/03/kanye_west_names_the_best_rapper_alive_i.html

Summary list from Eminem's peers:
Greatest of All Time - Drake, Kanye, Kid Capri
Greatest Alive - Game, Lupe, Rakim, Kendrick Lamar, Tech N9NE, MGK.

Yeah, Jay-Z has great ability and so does Nas. However, they are both one dimensional (especially Jigga) and cannot match Eminem's flow/wordplay in my opinion. Keep in mind Jigga and Nas were both out when Em hit the scene. Yet nobody had heard a multi-syllabic style like Em's. Jay-Z/Nas never rapped from different personas nor changed their styles throughout their careers like Em did with Marshall Mathers/Slim Shady/Eminem/Kenneth Kaniff/arab terrorist/imitation of pop icons etc. From a creative standpoint, Em trumps Jay-Z and Nas. I'll give Nas credit in that he has rapped about a wide array of topics but it's almost always with the same style and persona.

You seem to be really stuck on appearance ("noone looks like him"). Nobody looks like Dizaster either (Arab), but do you think he got the KOTD crown because of how he looked? No, it was his photographic memory, delivery, and content. Appearances will only take you so far.

I will give you that Em's ethnicity allowed him to broach certain topics that would have been tougher for blacks to touch such as shrooms, trailer parks, and white pop icon parodies (britney). Yet Em still had to use a non-white vehicle so he was still taking as big a risk as say, a Nas parody of a white pop icon.

In the end, Em is embraced by titans of his industry as either Greatest of All Time or Greatest Alive and you should take a deeper look into Em's music to see why they believe this. Maybe you'll be able to find the Nas interview on why he deems Em "amazing" and broaden your horizons which seem to be stuck on the latest flavor of the year like Jay Electronica. When JE has done it for 15 years, then we'll re-open this thread and measure epeens to see where JE's contribution and reverence among his peers measure up to Em's.

Nas doesn't have Grammy's because he's not mainstream enough. When's the last time you heard Nas on clear channel? How about Drake, Lil Wayne, or Em? There's your answer.

Also interesting to see will be his next album that drops in a month or so featuring 50, Royce, Primo, Dre, etc. I'm willing to bet that will hit number 1 as well.

 

[SheHateMe]

You seem to be really stuck on appearance ("noone looks like him"). Nobody looks like Dizaster either (Arab), but do you think he got the KOTD crown because of how he looked? No, it was his photographic memory, delivery, and content. Appearances will only take you so far.

I will give you that Em's ethnicity allowed him to broach certain topics that would have been tougher for blacks to touch such as shrooms, trailer parks, and white pop icon parodies (britney). Yet Em still had to use a non-white vehicle so he was still taking as big a risk as a Nas parody of a white pop icon.

In the end, Em is embraced by titans of his industry as either Greatest of All Time or Greatest Alive and you should take a deeper look into Em's music to see why they believe this. Maybe you'll be able to find the Nas interview on why he deems Em "amazing" and broaden your horizons which seem to be stuck on the latest flavor of the year like Jay Electronica. When JE has done it for 15 years, then we'll re-open this thread and measure epeens to see where JE's contribution and reverence among his peers measure up to Em's.

Also interesting to see will be his next album that drops in a month or so featuring 50, Royce, Primo, Dre, etc. I'm willing to bet that will hit number 1 as well.

Sure, I'll look for the Nas interview. I'm not stuck on JE, but I do listen to him quite often. He is probably not a good direct comparison to Em. There are others, but, I was listening to JE at the time of the post :biggrin:

C
Nas doesn't have Grammy's because he's not mainstream enough. When's the last time you heard Nas on clear channel? How about Drake, Lil Wayne, or Em? There's your answer.

Lil Wayne is certainly mainstream enough Drake aswell. lol

Nas...no, not at all...and its not really fair. He's solid.


Ahh...that's why I listen to satellite radio anyway. Shade45 and Rap stations are on 24/7.


I don't hate Em. And I don't dislike him because he's white. I just think certain people deserve just as much hype and they don't get it.

That's all.


Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed it.

 

[Ns1]

Thank's for the discussion. I enjoyed it.

+1

good 200 reply thread.

 

[bigrash]

I liked him years ago. Thought he was a good rapper. My favorite of his songs is also Stan.

I don't listen to his stuff as much, but I still think he was unique and had tons of talent.

 

[JM Aggie08]

Thanks for the good time, everyone :thumbsup:

 

[SphinxnihpS]

It actually wasn't until the late 80's when people were really getting into it. Before then, Rap was something you did outside in a circle with your friends. Radio stations wouldn't play it. When Def Jam came around, it was picking up a LOT of momentum as far as breaking into the mainstream. Hip Hop wasn't widely accepted either. The 80's were really the best time for these two genres. There was so much talent, and when people caught on it blew up in a way.

"Underground" does not mean "not popular".

My mom was HEAVILY into Hip Hop and she graduated HS in 84'. She was there, she felt it, she was into the style, etc. She still has Tapes and some of her silly 80's photos. She snuck out of the house to go to concerts, etc.



I don't care if Eminem is white, I am just saying that a lot of the attention he got as a new artist was because he was white. White rappers are a dime a dozen. He was extremely gimmicky when he first came out. But, he was serious. He wasn't like Riff Raff. People took him seriously, because he could keep up with other rappers. We have never seen a rapper like Eminem. He is really the only white mainstream rapper that has lasted a long time.



And I can think of 10 other rappers that have the same skill. Not all rappers are like Lil Wayne. Many rappers have insane lyrical skills...but they are not mainstream. They go largely unnoticed by people who think Eminem is the one and only truth. People who aren't into rap, etc. I asked before if there was a specific thing Eminem has that other rappers don't. Nobody could answer.

In my opinion, when you are great at something nobody else can do better than you in....you're the best. That's it.




So, because I was a child when Eminem debuted and non-existent during the birth of Hip-Hop/Rap , that means I couldn't have possibly been into 80's and early 90's Rap and Hip Hop?

What a childish thing to say.

I didn't have to be "there" (and I'm assuming you mean the 80's).

So, because I won't concede that Eminem is the best rapper ever its a "pathetic character assassination"? Oh please.

I was "there" when Eminem debuted, his music we being targeted towards me on all the music shows. TRL, BET, VH1 countdowns.... Young people carried that dude. I watched TRL and 106 & Park every damn day after school and he was on non-stop.[/B]

I am well aware of the definition of underground, mainstream, popular, and the like. Like I said, it was underground in the 70s (known and liked by a few insiders). It was popular among a segment of the population in the 80s. I had friends and acquaintances who listened exclusively to rap by 1984, and it was has grown in popularity since then. I would still not consider Rap as a whole mainstream, but I would consider elements of it as such. That said, Eminem is completely mainstream and a pure rapper. There's not an ounce of Hip-hop in him. This fact says something about his style and power. The Beastie Boys were easily more ear, parent, and marketing-friendly, but he eclipsed them. And by the way, they're all white and have had varying degrees of success between 1984 and the present (RIP MCA).

No, your pathetic character assassination is the fact you believe Eminem's success is due solely to his skin color, not that you don't concede he's the best there ever was, or that you weren't around (nor fully mentally mature). I could give a fuck about that. I think your opinion is shit, but that has nothing to do with what I am talking about, which is your completely skewed, secondhand knowledge of the history of music and how that impacts people's perceptions of style and talent.

At any rate, Ms. True Fan, kindly post some of those killer lyrics. I wouldn't mind another giggle at your expense, or you may just know something I don't; win win for me. I mean, I find most song lyrics pitifully shallow, one-dimensional, poorly worded garbage-poetry, and that includes lyrics to a fuckton of songs I love, but when the lyrics are the primary driver of the music, then they should be more highly scrutinized. Occasionally there are some true poets out there who get mixed up in bands and good things happen, so maybe you have had a brush with a few of those. Anyway, let's see.

 

[SheHateMe]

I think your opinion is shit

At any rate, Ms. True Fan, kindly post some of those killer lyrics. I wouldn't mind another giggle at your expense, or you may just know something I don't; win win for me. I mean, I find most song lyrics pitifully shallow, one-dimensional, poorly worded garbage-poetry, and that includes lyrics to a fuckton of songs I love, but when the lyrics are the primary driver of the music, then they should be more highly scrutinized.

You think my opinion is shit...you think most song lyrics are shallow...but you want me to share personal favorites. That makes zero sense. I done with you.


I don't feel like going back and forth with you. You are clearly getting hostile...for what reason, I don't know. Try not to get too emotional. You already tried that once when you PMed me about my desktop and you were WRONG then. Perhaps you are carrying that anger and hostility towards me in that thread to this one.

I have no time to get into a flame war with you and the two others that can't find anything else to say that actually contributes to the discussion.

Anyway, I'm over it. I wanted SP33Demon to respond to my post and he finally did. So its squashed.


Excuse me while I go and use PuTTy to telnet into some super secret piracy source.

 

[Tim]

Rap sucks

 

[SP33Demon]

Sure, I'll look for the Nas interview. I'm not stuck on JE, but I do listen to him quite often. He is probably not a good direct comparison to Em. There are others, but, I was listening to JE at the time of the post :biggrin:

Lil Wayne is certainly mainstream enough Drake aswell. lol

Nas...no, not at all...and its not really fair. He's solid.

You answered your own dilemma. Nas hasn't won Grammy's because he's not mainstream. Definitely solid, yes, but we need to analyze why Em has mainstream appeal and Nas does not. I would bet that Em's multiple persona's (especially the juvenile humor of Slim Shady) could be a reason aside from the knee jerk "he's white" difference. Because Drake just won a Grammy and he's certainly not white, nor is Wayne. Could Nas appeal to mainstream if he tried? Probably. But there are reasons why he hasn't that are holding him back.

Ahh...that's why I listen to satellite radio anyway. Shade45 and Rap stations are on 24/7.

They don't play Drake or L.Wayne on Shade45? I cancelled XM a couple years back and I remember them playing Weezy, maybe times have changed.

I don't hate Em. And I don't dislike him because he's white. I just think certain people deserve just as much hype and they don't get it.

That's all.

You didn't think Recovery was that good? Bad Meets Evil? I thought they were both entertaining and solid #1's. I can see the argument for Recovery = borderline classic.

I agree that others are almost as good, but the pool is alot more crowded nowadays. For example, it was easier for say, Wilt Chamberlain to dominate in his era vs Lebron due to global expansion of the game. I think the same thing is happening in rap, competition is even more fierce with the advent of Pay per View battle rapping. Rappers are forced to evolve, just like Em did, if they want to be the next big thing. It's always going to be a challenge. For example, Drake's r&b singing mixed with grittiness or Lil Wayne's charisma + neverending puns that weren't done in a way that had been done before. Eventually overexposure will be their death knell if it hasn't happened already. For some reason, Em has been relatively immune to overexposure due to his evolving personas and phases that gave him ammo to write about.

If Em knocks his next release out of the park, it will really solidify his legacy in my opinion. He's gotta fall off eventually, is that time here yet? Even M.Jordan had to retire.

Thanks for the discussion. I enjoyed it.

Yes very good discussion, thank you.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Rap sucks

Lulz.

1 notch above the stupid "who" replies.

 

[SheHateMe]

They don't play Drake or L.Wayne on Shade45? I cancelled XM a couple years back and I remember them playing Weezy, maybe times have changed.

Not that often, but yes.

Shade45 is not that type of station, it is more likely that they would play stuff that isn't so mainstream.

You should get the sub back, its only $8

 

[SphinxnihpS]

You think my opinion is shit...you think most song lyrics are shallow...but you want me to share personal favorites. That makes zero sense. I done with you.


I don't feel like going back and forth with you. You are clearly getting hostile...for what reason, I don't know. Try not to get too emotional. You already tried that once when you PMed me about my desktop and you were WRONG then. Perhaps you are carrying that anger and hostility towards me in that thread to this one.

I have no time to get into a flame war with you and the two others that can't find anything else to say that actually contributes to the discussion.

Anyway, I'm over it. I wanted SP33Demon to respond to my post and he finally did. So its squashed.


Excuse me while I go and use PuTTy to telnet into some super secret piracy source.

lulz, your demonstrated opinion is shit. I'm asking you to fix my perceptions or reinforce them, i.e. let's see what's so great about who you like. i.e.e. put your money where your big fat mouth is.

Cool, I could really use a few new Xbox games. Let me know what you find.

Another by the way... Just because some people on a tech forum can think of a few legitimate uses for telnet, does not mean that's what you are using it for. Just because I didn't know what the fuck GitHub is, didn't make the xbox hacking tools (rom loaders, serial bypassers, image makers, and whatnot) Usenet binary tools, or obvious directories of pirated shit on your desktop any more legitimate. I looked at the pic of your DT and see just about every illegal downloading tool known to man on there. I don't care. Pirate away. The only reason I brought it up was to see if you would have the gall to deny it, which you do. But you never explained any of those things, just deflected the criticism to my obvious lack of technical knowledge when it comes to telnet software (lol SFTP software) and open development sites... So was I wrong about Putty, GitHub, maybe, probably, but was I wrong, no.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

<snip>


Ask yourself this...if Eminem wasn't a white dude...would he have so much notoriety? At the time he came out, there were ZERO white dudes rapping on his level. Right now, I can name two who have a better flow than he does (and they are also considered "Underground").

There are also a number of black rappers who are considered "Underground" that are better than Em.

This sums up SHM's entire issues with eminem. He's white, thus he didn't do anything that wasn't climbing off the back of some other race.

Seriously WTF. Rappers can be any race.