Some 20 year old chick gets shot in the head, accidentally, in a church

[irishScott]

While I do support doing away with the 2nd amendment, ITT I'm simply saying that the law should prohibit firearms from being carried in public places, period.

And both views are plainly irrational. Thanks for putting it so clearly.

 

[corwin]

Took the free class. Used the officers' Glocks (both mock-ups and real ones with air bullets) in an advanced training simulator. Then used my mother's firearms at the officers' shooting range for the other part of the class.

Just for the fun of it? Doesn't make much sense considering how you've represented your views...

 

[JulesMaximus]

Actually it kinda does. Logically speaking, there were tons of states with no-issue who changed to shall-issue. It's a fact that people took advantage of these changes. Ergo more people are carrying now than 30 years ago.

The sales numbers for small sub-compact carry weapons further support this assertion.

That's just one side of what he argued though and nobody has provided any numbers to back up the claim. He also stated that gun accidents had not increased, which he has done nothing to prove.

Look, if I'm wrong I'll admit it, but corwin made a statement that I simply am unwilling to believe without some proof.

I'm not looking to ban guns or even do away with CCW. I'm just looking at this event as one that will become more common as more and more people choose to arm themselves. Accidental discharges, mistaken identity, innocent victim caught in the cross-fire, these are all possible negatives to allowing more and more people to carry guns.

 

[Ichinisan]

Just for the fun of it? Doesn't make much sense considering how you've represented your views...

How have I represented my views? I support the right to bear arms. I might choose to own one, someday...but I don't hang around responsible people. Also, I've never really enjoyed using them.

 

[JulesMaximus]

You got me...by "percentage" maybe...however in modern times concealed carry is higher now than it's ever been

Oops...missed that you were in Kalifornia...but again that's your choice to make whether you even want to try to get one

I would never live anywhere else quite frankly.

 

[Ichinisan]

I would never live anywhere else quite frankly.

My brother recently returned from 3 years in San Diego. Not sure which area he prefers.

 

[corwin]

How have I represented my views? I support the right to bear arms. I might choose to own one, someday...but I don't hang around responsible people.

Seems like you were against CCW in general, maybe I got confused, it happens...

That's just one side of what he argued though and nobody has provided any numbers to back up the claim. He also stated that gun accidents had not increased, which he has done nothing to prove.

Look, if I'm wrong I'll admit it, but corwin made a statement that I simply am unwilling to believe without some proof.

I'm not looking to ban guns or even do away with CCW. I'm just looking at this event as one that will become more common as more and more people choose to arm themselves. Accidental discharges, mistaken identity, innocent victim caught in the cross-fire, these are all possible negatives to allowing more and more people to carry guns.

Ah...forgot to get that info...trying to find a source with multi-year data

 

[HAL9000]

The guy was a licensed security officer. Do you think security and police officers shouldn't have guns?

Only in extremely rare cases should police officers carry guns, in the UK we have armed response units and some serious organised crime officers with guns, the rest do not.

 

[irishScott]

That's just one side of what he argued though and nobody has provided any numbers to back up the claim. He also stated that gun accidents had not increased, which he has done nothing to prove.

Look, if I'm wrong I'll admit it, but corwin made a statement that I simply am unwilling to believe without some proof.

I'm not looking to ban guns or even do away with CCW. I'm just looking at this event as one that will become more common as more and more people choose to arm themselves. Accidental discharges, mistaken identity, innocent victim caught in the cross-fire, these are all possible negatives to allowing more and more people to carry guns.

Well there is no national data I can think of, but the government of Texas keeps track of its permit holders and their convictions.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/demographics.htm
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

The number of permits issued in 2001 was 53,403. The number of permits issued in 2010 was 323,325. Criminal convictions of CCW holders in 2001 was 99. In 2009, 101. You can examine the rest of the data as you wish.

 

[gothamhunter]

Did I somehow step into P&N?

 

[CountZero]

As for guns in public places, I can pull up several stories where concealed carry permits have saved lives if you like.

Are there studies with actually statistics on the number of lives saved by legal concealed carry?

I've never seen any. But it would be interesting to see how many lives are saved on average each year by legal carry and to see it side by side with number of deaths because of legal carry. I'm sure it would be more lives saved than lost but I'd also bet it is a very small number for both.

 

[irishScott]

Only in extremely rare cases should police officers carry guns, in the UK we have armed response units and some serious organised crime officers with guns, the rest do not.

Yep. And with a police force like that you get the wonderful UK riots.

 

[irishScott]

Are there studies with actually statistics on the number of lives saved by legal concealed carry?

I've never seen any. But it would be interesting to see how many lives are saved on average each year by legal carry and to see it side by side with number of deaths because of legal carry. I'm sure it would be more lives saved than lost but I'd also bet it is a very small number for both.

Unfortunately no, otherwise I'd be spamming it everywhere in debates like these. Most I can do is post individual stores. But it is a fact that as concealed carry has gone up, crime is almost at an all time low. There may or may not be a connection, and any connection is probably minor, but the gun fights in the streets predicted by the naysayers have failed to materialize.

There are also the Texas stats I posted earlier, showing that the number of approved CCW permits has gone up several hundred percent in the last 10 years, and criminal conviction of CCW holders has remained effectively constant (99 convictions in 2001 vs 101 in 2009).

 

[corwin]

That's just one side of what he argued though and nobody has provided any numbers to back up the claim. He also stated that gun accidents had not increased, which he has done nothing to prove.

Well best I can find on short notice but here ya go...it's ten years old but the trend is unmistakable, they are citing numbers from the National Safety Council but I can't seem to find any of their newer data

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_221-A_Century_of_Success_in_Reducing_Firearms_Accidents.pdf

And here's an interesting one from them too...it's a chart so shouldn't be too hard to understand...two figures should stand out, one for "assault by firearm" and one for "firearm discharge"...pretty easy to figure out which one is accidental and which one isn't...
http://www.nsc.org/NSC%20Picture%20Library/News/web_graphics/Injury_Facts_37.pdf

 

[JSt0rm]

What's ironic about it?

I want to know how that guy managed to get a concealed weapons permit and somehow forgot about the riound in the chamber.

Because he is a human being and humans make mistakes?

As cc becomes more acceptable in society we will have to accept a certain number of accidental deaths. It just comes with the territory. The 2nd amendment rights to carry a weapon is more important then a few lives.

Statistically the chance of this happening to any one of us is very remote.

 

[Red Storm]

Because he is a human being and humans make mistakes?

As cc becomes more acceptable in society we will have to accept a certain number of accidental deaths. It just comes with the territory. The 2nd amendment rights to carry a weapon is more important then a few lives.

Statistically the chance of this happening to any one of us is very remote.

There's a reason why you check and then re-check it. He never checked once apparently. This is more than just a mistake.

 

[corwin]

Because he is a human being and humans make mistakes?

As cc becomes more acceptable in society we will have to accept a certain number of accidental deaths. It just comes with the territory. The 2nd amendment rights to carry a weapon is more important then a few lives.

Statistically the chance of this happening to any one of us is very remote.

Not sure if serious or just trolling...and as I just linked http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_221-A_Century_of_Success_in_Reducing_Firearms_Accidents.pdf accidental firearm deaths have been declining for a long time

 

[HAL9000]

Yep. And with a police force like that you get the wonderful UK riots.

That we do, if only we'd all had guns then a lot more than only one person would have died.

 

[irishScott]

There's a reason why you check and then re-check it. He never checked once apparently. This is more than just a mistake.

This. Also, a gun fires under two conditions: 1. The trigger is pulled. 2. The gun lacks a firing pin block and is dropped with the muzzle facing the ground.

In case 2 the gun is pointed at the ground and cannot shoot someone in the head short of a highly unlikely ricochet. So we have case 1, one of these two idiots pulled the trigger with the gun pointed in an unsafe direction. Accident my ass.

 

[OlafSicky]

It wasn't and accident it was negligence. If you own a gun you should know how to use it. The owner should be charged with homicide.

 

[irishScott]

That we do, if only we'd all had guns then a lot more than only one person would have died.

Criminals intent on wanton destruction would have died yes. Fewer violent criminals seems a net positive to me. And you wouldn't be footing a 200 million pound bill.

 

[JSt0rm]

There's a reason why you check and then re-check it. He never checked once apparently. This is more than just a mistake.

Right but s a human being we are more prone to mistakes then say god would be. If the vice president can shoot somebody in the face it can happen to all of us.

 

[corwin]

It wasn't and accident it was negligence. If you own a gun you should know how to use it. The owner should be charged with homicide.

No no no...you blame the object not the person!

Oh wait, nevermind, it was the person...but that lifeless hunk of metal is scaring some people around here

 

[HAL9000]

Criminals intent on wanton destruction would have died yes. Fewer violent criminals seems a net positive to me. And you wouldn't be footing a 200 million pound bill.

So only the upstanding citizens would have guns? No one would be accidentally killed? If one more innocent person would have died from us having guns then it would be a bad idea.

 

[JSt0rm]

Not sure if serious or just trolling...and as I just linked http://www.saami.org/specifications...of_Success_in_Reducing_Firearms_Accidents.pdf accidental firearm deaths have been declining for a long time

Thats great.

We still have to accept some accidental deaths for our 2nd amendment rights. We can strive for none but in reality we will never hit that.