some insights into some of the current problems in the academic field of science

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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
There are problems in modern science. They have nothing to do with a lack of respect for philosophy. The main problem is clutter. The publish or perish model has led to a generation of half-assed, incremental papers reporting partially completed research that make it difficult for other researchers to find reliable, well documented information. Instead of waiting until a project has useful results, which might take a few years, researchers are pressured to publish before they really have anything to say. It's a waste of everybody's time.

The second problem is that the use of citation indices as a measure of research impact has led to a ridiculous over-use of citations. Researchers cite their own past papers and those of folks in their research groups to bump up the citation ranking. Couple that with the publication of immature research results and we have a situation where it is getting harder and harder to find meaningful results. One can no longer follow a reasonable trail of citations to find that one paper that might be of value.

This concludes my bitch about science for today.

You know I had an epiphany about this today actually. I realized that most individuals in religion and sociology are followers who do not think for themselves. Then I realized it is the same way with science. Most individuals only read the texts and memorize everything instead of thinking about why such is as it is and gaining an understanding of any particular subject.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,523
27,824
136
You know I had an epiphany about this today actually. I realized that most individuals in religion and sociology are followers who do not think for themselves. Then I realized it is the same way with science. Most individuals only read the texts and memorize everything instead of thinking about why such is as it is and gaining an understanding of any particular subject.
Your epiphany is wrong.
 

Rebel_L

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
451
63
91
You know I had an epiphany about this today actually. I realized that most individuals in religion and sociology are followers who do not think for themselves. Then I realized it is the same way with science. Most individuals only read the texts and memorize everything instead of thinking about why such is as it is and gaining an understanding of any particular subject.

To take your analogy a step further the problems that ironwing describes in published articles and research seem to be a good parallel for clergy corruption where you see clergy that are in it just for power and influence. I guess science as a "religion" has been around long enough and is large enough to have to deal with those fun problems as well.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
8,172
137
106
The scientific community is comprised mostly of people seeking a paycheck from wealthy interests that have motives which supercede pure science. Big pharma for example. It's about profits. It is mostly junk science, ie studies done to make something look good when it is really bad. If you do the junk science, you get huge grants and big rewards. If you do real science, your funding gets pulled.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
To take your analogy a step further the problems that ironwing describes in published articles and research seem to be a good parallel for clergy corruption where you see clergy that are in it just for power and influence. I guess science as a "religion" has been around long enough and is large enough to have to deal with those fun problems as well.

Well in many ways the problem is not science or religion but individuals or society. Think about whether randomly picking some scientist and whether or not getting a new expensive car would be something that he is more partial to than the accuracy and integrity of science. He may or may not identify as a nerd but he probably grew up in society and had influences on his mind about how good and right it is to be rich and have lots of expensive conspicuous property, luxuries, and services.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
So I read this somewhere but am not sure where right now so I have no link.

So basically with anything you have the following parameters.

"what?, where?, when?, how?, why?"

there were a few other examples he gave about nonscience variations but the science one went like this.

"what?, where?, when?, how?, wow!"
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
The scientific community is comprised mostly of people seeking a paycheck from wealthy interests that have motives which supercede pure science. Big pharma for example. It's about profits. It is mostly junk science, ie studies done to make something look good when it is really bad. If you do the junk science, you get huge grants and big rewards. If you do real science, your funding gets pulled.

So why are there so many science worshipers on the boards?

It was pretty obvious to me that I wanted NOTHING to do with the actual science world. Science is for sale to the highest bidder. If you wanted to actually solve a big problem, your best bet is finance, then hire 10 scientists. Cause you'd accomplish your goals 10 times faster.

Private funding is a growing problem in the science community. Its just not what it used to be. Retractions are on the rise as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/28/science/retractions-scientific-studies.html?_r=0

Example.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Trust and honesty are important, but let's not confuse an interest in those with any specific type of research practice. Instead, let's address what seems like an elephant in the room, which is that eliminating 'research sins' is neither a necessary nor a sufficient way to produce engagement with worldly problems in useful ways. We can debate our own self-created and self-identified troubles as they relate to a particular image of science, but if this doesn't allow us to tackle worldly problems in useful ways, then what's the point? Our problem isn't being somehow more scientific--we've already taken that to an extreme--our problem is doing more useful work.

Along with many others, I am in favor of a very empirical science. In the name of such a science, it seems important to recognize that it offers insights that diffuse an interest in scientific truth, knowledge, or fact as kinds of abstracted 'things' of some kind. To be clear: there is consensus among scientists that the human being is a species of African great ape who develops within a culture to act, speak, and think in always-local ways. Terms such as 'truth' or 'knowledge' are words that this species uses, and words acquire their meanings in a way that is dynamically mapped onto social situations. Such dynamism in word usage is useful because, like other related animals, humans use language to organize collective action. As an animal, when we study the human at work, we find that it uses words such as truth, knowledge, or fact merely to coordinate its collective activity. Indeed, there really isn't anything spectacular about the language scientists use outside of how they coordinate their activity, including perceptions, beliefs, and thoughts, which are all active and learned social processes. Further, when we actually take an empirical look at the historical emergence of the sciences and their notions of truth, knowledge, or fact, we find that these grow out of a religious occupation with divining the essence or will or a deity in order to conform with it--the biblical laws very clearly shifted to become 'natural laws' in the 1600s. The evolution of the interest in a kind of transcendental divinity is still found in philosophy and the sciences when researchers look for something beyond their collective actions and discourse to abstractions such as 'truth' (or whatever)--you can see the worship here on anandtech. However, like all words, empirical science tells us that this is just another mundane utterance of an African great ape. There's really nothing spectacular about the words of scientists or anyone else as long as we remain empirical and scientific, rejecting a naive belief in the transcendental and quite religious character of any specific element of human discourse.

Further, regarding hypotheses, models, theories, and whatever else we're supposed to be chasing to be more scientific, it has long been recognized even by physicists that an infinite number of hypotheses, models, and theories can explain the same data equally well. This and related issues help to obliterate the possibility of arriving at a singular kind of truth or fact. This and related issues is discussed in various ways under terms such as 'meaning variance', the 'underdetermination of theory', the 'Quine-Duhem hypothesis', the 'problem of induction', and the list could go on. All such problems illustrate that the best and brightest among us have showed the impossibility of arriving at some abstracted singular thing called truth (or whatever). If we can get away from the transcendental addiction and become empirical scientists, we can recognize all forms of hypotheses, models, and theories as being merely types of human discourse, serving as analogical tools that an African great ape uses to reason and coordinate collective action. No form of this animal's discourse offers a path to a transcendental or otherwise divine location--no one gets to leave the cave, much less return to it. Unfortunately, as we have found in the organizational sciences, the practical aspects of the human's discursive activities are too often lost, forgotten, and misunderstood when it focuses on the analogical tools as gateways to something transcendental, such as a singular kind of truth (or whatever).

A profound empirical science is here if we want it, but in my view it would direct us away from our interest in 'science' itself as an abstraction, as a word that we would use to regulate our own activities in ways that take us away from the potential practical application of what we can collectively do and say. Is honesty important? Sure, but not because without it we risk "distorting reality" in any naive sense. Instead, we risk failing to collectively organize ourselves in useful ways, because telling the truth means playing by a set of local rules for collective discourse and action that require being able to trust each other. Instead of merely trying to enforce these rules, we should stop and consider whether or not the rules allow us to do good and important work. What is 'important work'? I'm not sure, but talking about it seems like the right conversation to have.

As a few examples, perhaps we can recognize that solving any research problem will do nothing to stop global warming, reduce social and economic inequalities, eliminate corruption in business and government, increase democratic participation, and the like. By focusing on being more 'scientific', we risk forgetting that we're members of a human species. In order to achieve our great potentials, earn our large salaries, and grapple with useful means and ends, it seems time to start speaking and acting differently. A staunchly empirical science, as a collective human endeavor, should have us do no less.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
Trust and honesty are important, but let's not confuse an interest in those with any specific type of research practice. Instead, let's address what seems like an elephant in the room, which is that eliminating 'research sins' is neither a necessary nor a sufficient way to produce engagement with worldly problems in useful ways. We can debate our own self-created and self-identified troubles as they relate to a particular image of science, but if this doesn't allow us to tackle worldly problems in useful ways, then what's the point? Our problem isn't being somehow more scientific--we've already taken that to an extreme--our problem is doing more useful work.

Along with many others, I am in favor of a very empirical science. In the name of such a science, it seems important to recognize that it offers insights that diffuse an interest in scientific truth, knowledge, or fact as kinds of abstracted 'things' of some kind. To be clear: there is consensus among scientists that the human being is a species of African great ape who develops within a culture to act, speak, and think in always-local ways. Terms such as 'truth' or 'knowledge' are words that this species uses, and words acquire their meanings in a way that is dynamically mapped onto social situations. Such dynamism in word usage is useful because, like other related animals, humans use language to organize collective action. As an animal, when we study the human at work, we find that it uses words such as truth, knowledge, or fact merely to coordinate its collective activity. Indeed, there really isn't anything spectacular about the language scientists use outside of how they coordinate their activity, including perceptions, beliefs, and thoughts, which are all active and learned social processes. Further, when we actually take an empirical look at the historical emergence of the sciences and their notions of truth, knowledge, or fact, we find that these grow out of a religious occupation with divining the essence or will or a deity in order to conform with it--the biblical laws very clearly shifted to become 'natural laws' in the 1600s. The evolution of the interest in a kind of transcendental divinity is still found in philosophy and the sciences when researchers look for something beyond their collective actions and discourse to abstractions such as 'truth' (or whatever)--you can see the worship here on anandtech. However, like all words, empirical science tells us that this is just another mundane utterance of an African great ape. There's really nothing spectacular about the words of scientists or anyone else as long as we remain empirical and scientific, rejecting a naive belief in the transcendental and quite religious character of any specific element of human discourse.

Further, regarding hypotheses, models, theories, and whatever else we're supposed to be chasing to be more scientific, it has long been recognized even by physicists that an infinite number of hypotheses, models, and theories can explain the same data equally well. This and related issues help to obliterate the possibility of arriving at a singular kind of truth or fact. This and related issues is discussed in various ways under terms such as 'meaning variance', the 'underdetermination of theory', the 'Quine-Duhem hypothesis', the 'problem of induction', and the list could go on. All such problems illustrate that the best and brightest among us have showed the impossibility of arriving at some abstracted singular thing called truth (or whatever). If we can get away from the transcendental addiction and become empirical scientists, we can recognize all forms of hypotheses, models, and theories as being merely types of human discourse, serving as analogical tools that an African great ape uses to reason and coordinate collective action. No form of this animal's discourse offers a path to a transcendental or otherwise divine location--no one gets to leave the cave, much less return to it. Unfortunately, as we have found in the organizational sciences, the practical aspects of the human's discursive activities are too often lost, forgotten, and misunderstood when it focuses on the analogical tools as gateways to something transcendental, such as a singular kind of truth (or whatever).

A profound empirical science is here if we want it, but in my view it would direct us away from our interest in 'science' itself as an abstraction, as a word that we would use to regulate our own activities in ways that take us away from the potential practical application of what we can collectively do and say. Is honesty important? Sure, but not because without it we risk "distorting reality" in any naive sense. Instead, we risk failing to collectively organize ourselves in useful ways, because telling the truth means playing by a set of local rules for collective discourse and action that require being able to trust each other. Instead of merely trying to enforce these rules, we should stop and consider whether or not the rules allow us to do good and important work. What is 'important work'? I'm not sure, but talking about it seems like the right conversation to have.

As a few examples, perhaps we can recognize that solving any research problem will do nothing to stop global warming, reduce social and economic inequalities, eliminate corruption in business and government, increase democratic participation, and the like. By focusing on being more 'scientific', we risk forgetting that we're members of a human species. In order to achieve our great potentials, earn our large salaries, and grapple with useful means and ends, it seems time to start speaking and acting differently. A staunchly empirical science, as a collective human endeavor, should have us do no less.

Ironically you don't have any empirical evidence.

Though I can still dig reasonable and educated though. The huge focus on empirical evidence is a tad overblown right now. In essence, most big discoveries were observed trends. Then later we made them measurable.

Very similiar to the Galileo quote

“Measure what can be measured, and make measurable what cannot be measured.”


― Galileo Galilei

We are doing the opposite. We make things measurable without even knowing why. The purpose of the results and what they mean is lost. We measure for the sake of measuring. Everything is about the numbers. Despite all the empirical evidence of say... cholesterol and eggs in the diet nobody can give a straight answer if they are good or bad for you. Thats one of many, many examples.
 

mattpegher

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2006
2,207
0
71
Philosophy is at its basis the understanding of logic. It seeks to apply rules to relationships, ie if all trees are green and an oak is a tree then an oak is green. and rules of causality. The instruction of philosophy would often be better referred to as applied philosophy as the rule of theoretic philosophy are often too vague to be useful to the initiate. A true scientist must embrace pure philosophy in order to truly understand his field of study. This article simply illustrates the tendency for a sophomoric attempt to minimize the importance of the basis of understanding by groups that poorly understand the foundations of their field of study.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
This article simply illustrates the tendency for a sophomoric attempt to minimize the importance of the basis of understanding by groups that poorly understand the foundations of their field of study.

On the one side we have the free personality: by definition it is not neurotic, for it has neither conflict nor dream. Its desires, such as they are, are transparent, for they are just what institutional approval keeps in the forefront of consciousness; another institutional pattern would alter their number and intensity; there is little in them that is natural, irreducible, or culturally dangerous. But on the other side, the social bond itself is nothing but the mutual reflection of these self-secure integrities. Recall the definition of love. Is not this the very picture of a small academic? Where is there a place in this hall of mirrors for either personality or fraternity?

I'm making fun of you btw. Punch that into google and see what I'm referencing specifically.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Private funding is a growing problem in the science community. Its just not what it used to be. Retractions are on the rise as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/05/28/science/retractions-scientific-studies.html?_r=0

Example.

Retractions are evidence that science is doing its job to police out junk science. Again, look at that list in the NYT, and realize that while you might be able to get away with promoting something as fact for a little while, publishing opens your claim up to verification by other scientists. A related problem to publishing relates to problems with peer review.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/hank-ca...-is-harming-scientific-credibility-1405290747

I disagree somewhat with the OP's article in how it characterized Feynman as being dismissive of philosophy. Having watched a lot of his lectures, it appears that Feynman did recognize that there were some limits to science and how models described reality. What Feynman objected to as "philosophy," I think was really more toward the use of linguistics and vocabulary. This sort of sums it up: https://philosophynow.org/issues/59/Richard_Feynman_Accidental_Philosopher

Here's a video of him answering the question: "When you look at an object, do you only see light, or do you see the object" which isn't a valid question of science, but rather, a question about the meaning of words. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8aWBcPVPMo That's what he called "one of those dopey philosophical things." And, that's the type of philosophy that he seems to have rejected. But, his response to a "why" question here seems to hint at understanding limits to science: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFPe-DwULM (the video on magnets). I was also trying to find a clip where he discusses light. I found a few others which are wonderful, but there's one where he says that light acts like a wave, but it isn't really. And light acts like a particle, though it isn't. Perhaps I'm reading between the lines a little too much in how he says it, but it seems that he's saying, "this is a model of how it behaves, waves and particles are simply so we have a cognitive way to understand it. But, it is what it is, and we can use these models to describe reality and make predictions."
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Here's a video of him answering the question: "When you look at an object, do you only see light, or do you see the object" which isn't a valid question of science, but rather, a question about the meaning of words. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8aWBcPVPMo That's what he called "one of those dopey philosophical things." And, that's the type of philosophy that he seems to have rejected.
Except that it really does matter to physics.

If what we mean by the thing is all that we physically observe and interact with directly; then when we talk about the thing we are not talking about aspects of it that go beyond our immediate senses. So the x-ray radiation, gravity well, etc. created by this thing don't count as the thing; just the atoms that repulse our own atoms when we feel it, the way it vibrates air, the chemicals flowing from it, the way it makes some chemical receptors on our tong react, and the bandwidth of light it reflects. But the moment we create an x-ray detector part of the 'thing' is added to it: the x-rays.


On the other hand, if what we mean is all of the influences the thing has on all that is around it, then we the gravity well it exudes is part of the thing. Along with an untold myriad other 'invisible' attributes we have yet to create detectors for. In this scenario, to say that we can full know what a thing is becomes ridiculous.

In the first, we can get a very fundamental understanding of something; and that fundamental understanding is where we should start with all inquiry, that way we can build out from that common set of universals.

In the second, we must do applied research; as even though we can gain some insight from what aspects of knowledge we can reveal, the complexities and ultimate unknowability of all of the basic aspects of the thing mean that we need to focus ultimately on pragmatics.


And this is a very big deal: Just because Feynman chose to evade consideration of the relative standing of basic vs. applied science by ignoring the question of "When you look at an object, do you only see light, or do you see the object" Doesn't make it an invalid question. It simply means that by ignoring the importance of the question, he dismisses it.

Like anyone might dismiss what anyone has to say by concluding that the basis of their question is "in valid" or "dopey" and then just choosing the answer that best-fits that person's world view.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
How we "see" an object is very well understood. The question still stands a simply a question about what the word "see" means.

It really isn't.

How one interprets the electrical impulses is not well understood; and there's stark disagreement across many academic fields.

What we 'get at' when we say 'see' is what is well understood, but that's just a colloquial mess within a transitory word-game; the question for the scientists, which is enabled by the philosopher, is 'is what we are getting at going to get us there' AND/OR 'is what we are getting at fundamentally known/knowable'. A question which is important to understanding and directing fields of inquiry and upon which some of the disagreement between academic fields is built.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
It really isn't.

How one interprets the electrical impulses is not well understood; and there's stark disagreement across many academic fields.

What we 'get at' when we say 'see' is what is well understood, but that's just a colloquial mess within a transitory word-game; the question for the scientists, which is enabled by the philosopher, is 'is what we are getting at going to get us there' AND/OR 'is what we are getting at fundamentally known/knowable'. A question which is important to understanding and directing fields of inquiry and upon which some of the disagreement between academic fields is built.

Okay, very good point about the understanding of how our brains interpret the electrical signals sent from our eyes. Nonetheless, the point still stands about that question - do we see light, or do we see the object - is merely a question about what do we mean by the word "see."
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Okay, very good point about the understanding of how our brains interpret the electrical signals sent from our eyes. Nonetheless, the point still stands about that question - do we see light, or do we see the object - is merely a question about what do we mean by the word "see."

I agree it is a question of what we mean by the word; but it isn't a question of what comes after that word in the dictionary. There are complex networks of connotative meanings that every individual takes away when they 'see' a thing; and the meaning of the question is much more along the lines of "to what degree can we share a complex network of connotative meanings in a meaningful way".

Which isn't really all that important of a question to a physicist, on the surface of it. But as I said, the answer ends up answering the question "when do we go from doing fundamental research to applied research"; which is a much more valuable question for the physicist.

Unfortunately, most physicists are basic or applied and thus instead of finding the answer to the question useful to think about in context; they simply choose a side and run with it.
 
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Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,943
542
126
Cover those tracks!

Maybe in the future you will more carefully consider the things you say in the first place. It would certainly save you the trouble of coming in here to hide the things you've said previously.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
Cover those tracks!

Maybe in the future you will more carefully consider the things you say in the first place. It would certainly save you the trouble of coming in here to hide the things you've said previously.

What was said that was so disgraceful...
 
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Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
508
1
0
Trust and honesty are important, but let's not confuse an interest in those with any specific type of research practice. ...
....Along with many others, I am in favor of a very empirical science.... By focusing on being more 'scientific', we risk forgetting that we're members of a human species. In order to achieve our great potentials, earn our large salaries, and grapple with useful means and ends, it seems time to start speaking and acting differently. A staunchly empirical science, as a collective human endeavor, should have us do no less.

Two very helpful posts.
I agree completely with IronWing's reflections (25) on the awfulness of citation-chasing which has produced so many publications of marginal value.

Dixycrat asks some fundamental questions about empiricism.

Perhaps we need to agree some definitions and distinctions?

I believe there is a tendency here to blur the boundaries between 'science', 'technology' and empiricism. This has lead to a focus on practical achievements and has rather neglected an important factor in research, namely ethics.

The OED offers, among more archaic definitions of science, one with which I agree. "The sciences are reliable methods for the discovery of new truths".

Thus, science, in essence, is a methodology. Observe something, try to explain it, formulate a guess or hypothesis, manipulate an independent variable, then collect data to test the hunch. Wrong data, change the hunch. Do it lots of times to show it wasn't a fluke result. Do the stats, publish if significant.

Technology is the application of science. So the science of metallurgy gives birth to the technology of welding. What an important technology that has been. What a thrill it is to actually run a weld between two metal surfaces. Not science, but important stuff.

So now we need the other ingredient in good science. Ethics.

So the scientist has worked out that a small nuclear explosion can trigger a far larger thermonuclear (H-bomb) explosion. Should he or she work on this project? It is only a branch of theoretical physics.

It is telling that the great 'pure science' researchers in this area were terribly troubled by their research. Feynman and Oppenheimer had serious moments of doubt, Edward Teller, probably less so.
But these scientists realised how their work could be derailed to produce evermore powerful technologies of mass annihilation.
What disturbs me greatly is that those qualms seem barely to exist today. So we now have doctors of medicine collaborating on devices to re-hydrate ( via anal suppositories) prisoners undergoing torture, they do not do the torture, but they know how far the torturer can go. Follow the military grant money, if you doubt this.

Big Pharma pays for the results it needs. Read the pharmacology Journals, you need to decode the results, but the sample sizes are often so large that even tiny improvements between drug types will reach some sort of level of statistical significance which allows the company to claim that a new 'wonder drug' has been invented. The acid test is to look at the duration of 'quality of life gain' flowing from these 'predictable inventions'.
Too many scientists have forgotten their commitment to basic medical ethics.
 
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