Somebody forgot to tell Joe this wasn't a town hall

[jonks]

Originally posted by: brandonbull

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: brandonbull

How many people think the government run health care business is profitable or at least breakeven?

How many people think the government run health care business is good?

What enforcement methods are they going to use to ensure that the 10 illegal immigrants are going to pay for insurance? Most are not going to pay. Are emergency rooms going to start turning them away because they didn't pay their dues?

If Joe is arguing that taxpayer money can be used to pay for the health costs of illegals, he's a few decades late. If he has a problem with that, that's his business, but his problem lies with health care reforms passed under Reagan, not the plan proposed by Obama.

Is this being addressed in the current health care reform legislation? Not from the Dems.

If you are asking what percentage of people approve of Medicare and Medicaid, I don't have an exact number, but it is overwhelmingly positive. (this is one of the main fear points being put out by the GOP, that people will lose their cherished Medicare)

Your point about illegal immigrants has now shifted to a completely different topic. Are we talking about illegals being able to buy into the public insurance plan (as you originally talked about) or have we moved on to free emergency care that is offered to everyone in the US? The hospitals don't turn people away NOW, under current legislation. If you wanted to oppose that, you wouldn't oppose Obama's bill... you would try to repeal the legislation from the 80's.

I don't care if it's addressed in the current legislation (as I don't think it's a problem). Even if I did care about that issue though that would be a reason to pass additional legislation, not oppose this bill.

Does not shift focus. You want them to buy government run insurance. Why would they when they can still go to the emergency room and still get medical care? The "reform" bill doesn't seem to reform.

1. Then why does anyone go to a doctor over an emergency room?
2. Are you suggesting we create a law that hospitals refuse to treat people for emergencies at emergency rooms if they don't have insurance or are illegal aliens?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Link

This is where politics / political correctness fails.

With Obama as President, every negative comment is now "racist"

and they JUST HAD TO bring up the klan.

No, not every negative comment, just racist ones. It's a stretch to claim that Wilson's "you lie" is racist on its face, which is not the argument being made. It's being asserted that there is a level of racism/xenophobia among some in the anti-obama movement. This cannot be denied.

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Link

This is where politics / political correctness fails.

With Obama as President, every negative comment is now "racist"

and they JUST HAD TO bring up the klan.

No, not every negative comment, just racist ones. It's a stretch to claim that Wilson's "you lie" is racist on its face, which is not the argument being made. It's being asserted that there is a level of racism/xenophobia among some in the anti-obama movement. This cannot be denied.

Same goes for the pro-Obama movement.

There also have been suggestions that recent harsh criticism of Obama has been at least partly motivated by race. Rep. Barbara Lee, D-Calif., current head of the Congressional Black Caucus, said that "today is about the civility and decorum of the House." But she added that we "can't sweep race under the rug ? racism is still a factor and must be addressed."

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Link

This is where politics / political correctness fails.

With Obama as President, every negative comment is now "racist"

and they JUST HAD TO bring up the klan.

No, not every negative comment, just racist ones. It's a stretch to claim that Wilson's "you lie" is racist on its face, which is not the argument being made. It's being asserted that there is a level of racism/xenophobia among some in the anti-obama movement. This cannot be denied.

This.

But it is not a stretch to say Rep. Wilson is pandering to his supporters in the 5th district of South Carolina, or Lexington County, his official residence.

Lexington County being the former home of the leader of the SC KKK.

I say 'former' home because in 1999 his land was sold to a black church as part of a $21.5 million civil judgment --- of which the owner, Horace King, the leader of the state's Christian Knights of the KKK, owed $8 million.

Church Torched By KKK Now Owns Klan Property

 

[Fern]

These repeated attempts to label those who disagree with Obama as "racists" is starting to remind me of the abuses under Joe McCarthy. I.e., it's today's version of McCarthyism.

Fern

 

[Patranus]

Rep. Joe is bitch slapping the Democrats on CSPAN right now.

Good times.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Fern
These repeated attempts to label those who disagree with Obama as "racists" is starting to remind me of the abuses under Joe McCarthy. I.e., it's today's version of McCarthyism.

Fern

Wow Fern... just wow.

Someone with even the slightest knowledge of McCarthyism or racism in America would never attempt to make that comparison.

One, it's crap because you're using a gross exaggeration. Nobody is attempting to label all who disagree with Obama as racists, they are noting that a notable portion of Obama's detractors are racist. Shocking how a centrist candidate with huge post election popularity gets more death threats than any president elect in history. Must have just been a sale on threat-paper at Staples though, right?

Two, it's deliciously ironic how you try and cast this as the 'new McCarthyism', when it is the crazies going after Obama that are calling him a 'communist' and 'un-American'. Only in the bizarro world of today's right wing are the people calling someone an un-American communist subversive the perceived victims of 'McCarthyism'.

I gotta say again... wow.

 

[Schmide]

Originally posted by: Fern
These repeated attempts to label those who disagree with Obama as "racists" is starting to remind me of the abuses under Joe McCarthy. I.e., it's today's version of McCarthyism.

Fern

Mutual Exclusivity? No one is going after all decent nor classifying everyone as racist. Can you not separate the racist remarks from the movement, or do you prefer to defend the whole movement/group and ignore any racism within it? Totality is a bitch.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

He's just crying because they are bring censure against him. I would call him a tool, but that would imply he had some useful purpose

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Fern
These repeated attempts to label those who disagree with Obama as "racists" is starting to remind me of the abuses under Joe McCarthy. I.e., it's today's version of McCarthyism.

Fern

I'm not seeing Congressional hearings in front of the TV cameras, Fern ...


"" Are you now, or have you ever been a Racist ? ""


Nonetheless ----- 1/3 of Americans had a positive opinion of McCarthy (kinda skeery, huh ? )

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Fern
These repeated attempts to label those who disagree with Obama as "racists" is starting to remind me of the abuses under Joe McCarthy. I.e., it's today's version of McCarthyism.

Oh Really?

The right is so upside down right now they LONG FOR MCCARTHYISM.

Nope, the south ain't more racist than other parts of the country:


Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?

Yes 77
No 11
Not sure 12

Yes No Not sure
Dem 93 4 3
Rep 42 28 30
Ind 83 8 9

Northeast 93 4 3
South 47 23 30
Midwest 90 6 4
West 87 7 6

Gee, shocking.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Fern
These repeated attempts to label those who disagree with Obama as "racists" is starting to remind me of the abuses under Joe McCarthy. I.e., it's today's version of McCarthyism.

Oh Really?

The right is so upside down right now they LONG FOR MCCARTHYISM.

Nope, the south ain't more racist than other parts of the country:


Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?

Yes 77
No 11
Not sure 12

Yes No Not sure
Dem 93 4 3
Rep 42 28 30
Ind 83 8 9

Northeast 93 4 3
South 47 23 30
Midwest 90 6 4
West 87 7 6

Gee, shocking.

What does that have to do with being racist?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Patranus

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: Fern
These repeated attempts to label those who disagree with Obama as "racists" is starting to remind me of the abuses under Joe McCarthy. I.e., it's today's version of McCarthyism.

Oh Really?

The right is so upside down right now they LONG FOR MCCARTHYISM.

Nope, the south ain't more racist than other parts of the country:


Do you believe that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?

Yes 77
No 11
Not sure 12

Yes No Not sure
Dem 93 4 3
Rep 42 28 30
Ind 83 8 9

Northeast 93 4 3
South 47 23 30
Midwest 90 6 4
West 87 7 6

Gee, shocking.

What does that have to do with being racist?

You're not this stupid, stop acting like it.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
You're not this stupid, stop acting like it.

LOL - you are making stuff up and jumping to a conclusion that the poll simply does not show.

*Could* a certain percentage of the poll respondents have in fact been racist? Maybe, but there is no way to determine that from the data provided.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Patranus

What does that have to do with being racist?

You're not this stupid, stop acting like it.

No, he really is this stupid

 

[paperfist]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Link

This is where politics / political correctness fails.

With Obama as President, every negative comment is now "racist"

and they JUST HAD TO bring up the klan.

That is despicable. It's so sad this is what America has to offer as elected officials. I want a refund on the tax money I spent today funding the House witch hunt.

 

[Patranus]

Originally posted by: Phokus
No, he really is this stupid

I see. So when your intellectually dishonest argument doesn't hold water you resort to name calling.

Well I have something for you...
I am rubber you are glue, what ever you say bounces off me and sticks to you...so there!

 

[BMW540I6speed]

The cold war in general and McCarthyism in particular was built on lies, misinformation, obsession and guilt by the most tenuous of associations. After Eisenhower defeated Taft at the 1952 GOP convention, a woman emerged insisting, "This means eight more years of socialism." In the late 1940s, a chairman of a federal loyalty review board conceded, "Of course, the fact that a person believes in racial equality doesn't prove that he's a communist. But it certainly makes you look twice, doesn't it? You can't get away from the fact that racial equality is part of the communist line."

Today the Internet distributes these slurs faster, and cable TV gives them more outlets. But there has always been a sizable section of society that seeks to fashion a bespoke reality out of whole cloth. These are the people who believe that civil rights was really about miscegenation, abortion rights is about promiscuity and gay rights is about pedophilia. There are more of them than we'd like to think. And they are not going away.

There is a proportion of the country with whom there is no real means of engagement. These types are the birthers, Swiftboaters, climate change skeptics, Obamaphobes and Palin-tologists - the base. They live in a politically parallel world where everyone they know believes the same as they do. They don't like established facts, so they come armed with their own. The left has such people too, but they are marginalized & muzzled. With no news or radio channels to promote them or Congressmen prepared to advocate for them, their views rarely reach the mainstream.

These people gain the kind of purchase that shifts them from an irritant to an obstacle only when there is a vacuum of leadership and the absence of good alternatives. It is only under these conditions that they are able to cast unreasonable doubt in the reasonable minds of those who seek clarification, encouragement or a stake in any substantive change. This is precisely what has happened with the healthcare debate over the past few months. A decisive portion of the country is desperate to be convinced. They know that what they have now is terrible but have yet to be convinced that what might come is better.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Fern
These repeated attempts to label those who disagree with Obama as "racists" is starting to remind me of the abuses under Joe McCarthy. I.e., it's today's version of McCarthyism.

Fern

Wow Fern... just wow.

Someone with even the slightest knowledge of McCarthyism or racism in America would never attempt to make that comparison.

One, it's crap because you're using a gross exaggeration. Nobody is attempting to label all who disagree with Obama as racists, they are noting that a notable portion of Obama's detractors are racist. Shocking how a centrist candidate with huge post election popularity gets more death threats than any president elect in history. Must have just been a sale on threat-paper at Staples though, right?

Two, it's deliciously ironic how you try and cast this as the 'new McCarthyism', when it is the crazies going after Obama that are calling him a 'communist' and 'un-American'. Only in the bizarro world of today's right wing are the people calling someone an un-American communist subversive the perceived victims of 'McCarthyism'.

I gotta say again... wow.

Fern seems to live in his own version of reality. Seems to happen a lot around here.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
-snip-

Fern seems to live in his own version of reality. Seems to happen a lot around here.

[/quote]

Riiiight.

Day in and day out I see (Dem) Congresspersons, MSM talking heads and people here try to tar those who disagree with Obama's policies as 'racist'.

Fern

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
In the late 1940s, a chairman of a federal loyalty review board conceded, "Of course, the fact that a person believes in racial equality doesn't prove that he's a communist. But it certainly makes you look twice, doesn't it? You can't get away from the fact that racial equality is part of the communist line."

That is a great anecdote for illustrating the logical flaws many suffer from.

You can get people to support terrible things by demonizing some group and saying the demonized group is gainst those terrible things.

Healthcare for all is another example. Funny enoiugh it's had the same treatment- demonized under the word 'socialism' - since the same era when Truman supported it.

Today the Internet distributes these slurs faster, and cable TV gives them more outlets. But there has always been a sizable section of society that seeks to fashion a bespoke reality out of whole cloth. These are the people who believe that civil rights was really about miscegenation, abortion rights is about promiscuity and gay rights is about pedophilia. There are more of them than we'd like to think. And they are not going away.

There is a proportion of the country with whom there is no real means of engagement. These types are the birthers, Swiftboaters, climate change skeptics, Obamaphobes and Palin-tologists - the base. They live in a politically parallel world where everyone they know believes the same as they do. They don't like established facts, so they come armed with their own. The left has such people too, but they are marginalized & muzzled. With no news or radio channels to promote them or Congressmen prepared to advocate for them, their views rarely reach the mainstream.

These people gain the kind of purchase that shifts them from an irritant to an obstacle only when there is a vacuum of leadership and the absence of good alternatives. It is only under these conditions that they are able to cast unreasonable doubt in the reasonable minds of those who seek clarification, encouragement or a stake in any substantive change. This is precisely what has happened with the healthcare debate over the past few months. A decisive portion of the country is desperate to be convinced. They know that what they have now is terrible but have yet to be convinced that what might come is better.

Well said.

Because the mainstream media, for all its flaws regarding a pro-corporate and anti-left bias, filters out this sort of nuttiness - they ignore the crazies and limit their 'the two sides say' coverage to the more 'rational' views being expressed, however corrupt - it's a nearly invisible epidemic.

But from time to time the news slips in to stories, like when polls show the large support for Saddam-Al Queda links or the birthers.

These people are a failure of our democracy, and a threat to our nation, even while they have the 'right' to be those things.

It's good to try to understand why they are as they are and what can help, since relying only on their numbers not growing too large is not much protection.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
-snip-

Fern seems to live in his own version of reality. Seems to happen a lot around here.



Riiiight.

Day in and day out I see (Dem) Congresspersons, MSM talking heads and people here try to tar those who disagree with Obama's policies as 'racist'.

Fern

There is a portion of the population who do use race or "otherism " as reasons to oppose Obama. To think otherwise is either delusional or just looking the other way.

Now Limbaugh is hyperventilating over the story of a black teenager in Illinois who beat up a white kid. "In Obama's America, the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering" he said. And this is what is commonly referred to as race baiting. He is energizing the base useing race. Cant wait to see the signs & posters at the next tea party. More Fear & loathing. That will useually turn you into this kind of an empty shell of a human being.

What Obama needs to do is leverage his charisma. There is a portion of the Right that will always be racist, it's one of their bases, the other being religion. Obama needs to speak strongly, vigorously, and clearly. He hasn't done that all summer. Obama seems to have lost the exquisite sense of timing he displayed so often in the campaign.

Although, Focusing on the racism inherent in some people's opposition to Obama does what? How is this productive? We know there are racists. Such unrelenting focus on it does not help, it makes it worse. Because when you constantly accuse millions of people of being racist, and make assumptions about people being racist, you turn them off, you turn other people off, and you trivialize the real racism, both structural and rhetorical, dealing with the subject of Obama.

The reason why there have been more stories than usual dealing with race is that there have been a lot more stories about race to cover, since the anti-Obama opposition has had repeated racist eruptions (like Limbaugh's doozy today and Becks "Obama hates white people). Hell, if you anti-Obama people were really as noble and principled in your opposition as you claim to be, you would be the first to condemn Limbaugh, Beck and the other crazies on your side, since they only undermine whatever legitmate message you have.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
~~snip~~
Hell, if you anti-Obama people were really as noble and principled in your opposition as you claim to be, you would be the first to condemn Limbaugh, Beck and the other crazies on your side, since they only undermine whatever legitmate message you have.

Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
-snip-

Fern seems to live in his own version of reality. Seems to happen a lot around here.



Riiiight.

Day in and day out I see (Dem) Congresspersons, MSM talking heads and people here try to tar those who disagree with Obama's policies as 'racist'.

Fern

There is a portion of the population who do use race or "otherism " as reasons to oppose Obama. To think otherwise is either delusional or just looking the other way.

Now Limbaugh is hyperventilating over the story of a black teenager in Illinois who beat up a white kid. "In Obama's America, the white kids now get beat up with the black kids cheering" he said. And this is what is commonly referred to as race baiting. He is energizing the base useing race. Cant wait to see the signs & posters at the next tea party. More Fear & loathing. That will useually turn you into this kind of an empty shell of a human being.

What Obama needs to do is leverage his charisma. There is a portion of the Right that will always be racist, it's one of their bases, the other being religion. Obama needs to speak strongly, vigorously, and clearly. He hasn't done that all summer. Obama seems to have lost the exquisite sense of timing he displayed so often in the campaign.

Although, Focusing on the racism inherent in some people's opposition to Obama does what? How is this productive? We know there are racists. Such unrelenting focus on it does not help, it makes it worse. Because when you constantly accuse millions of people of being racist, and make assumptions about people being racist, you turn them off, you turn other people off, and you trivialize the real racism, both structural and rhetorical, dealing with the subject of Obama.

The reason why there have been more stories than usual dealing with race is that there have been a lot more stories about race to cover, since the anti-Obama opposition has had repeated racist eruptions (like Limbaugh's doozy today and Becks "Obama hates white people). Hell, if you anti-Obama people were really as noble and principled in your opposition as you claim to be, you would be the first to condemn Limbaugh, Beck and the other crazies on your side, since they only undermine whatever legitmate message you have.

well said..

I just have to add...if it was Olympia Snowe that stood up and called Obama a Liar I don't think the race issue would have been raised so quickly.

the fact that a white congressman from SC with ties to Confederate groups hollered at Obama and called him a liar...sorry....but racism definitely becomes a factor.

I'm just calling it like I see it. So is everyone else I assume. I guess that is the problem that these southern representatives have to deal with....

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
~~snip~~
Hell, if you anti-Obama people were really as noble and principled in your opposition as you claim to be, you would be the first to condemn Limbaugh, Beck and the other crazies on your side, since they only undermine whatever legitmate message you have.

Ding. Ding. Ding. Ding.

I'd have to say that the election of Obama has driven several 'centrist' conservatives on this board crazy, Fern being one of them. He went from being a reasoned moderate on Bush's issues to being a birther who thinks accusations of racism are the new anticommunist McCarthyism. That's not very healthy thinking, but I think he's hardly alone.