Something Weird About College Admissions

[KingofCamelot]

Well, decisions from UC Berkeley came back yesterday, and I noticed something odd at my school.

Student 1
*Straight As all 4 years. I saw his transcript myself and I don't think there was a single A- on it
*~4.33 GPA (guessing)
*AP and Honors classes
*Did sports
*Did fairly well on SAT
*White
*Male
*Financially stable

Student 2
*Did not get straight As. Haven't seen her transcript, but I figure its a peppering of As and Bs, with atleast one C (AP class)
*~4.00 GPA (guessing)
*AP and Honors classes
*Didn't do sports (not positive)
*Did worse than Student 1 on SAT
*Overall not as smart as Student 1
*Mexican
*Female
*Poor

"UC Berkeley is perennially the most selective school in the UC system and one of the most selective universities in the United States....an acceptance rate of 23.5%. The average person admitted to the university as a freshman in 2005 had a weighted GPA of 4.33, and those who matriculated in 2006 had an average GPA of 4.26 and average score of 1975 out of 2400 (approximately 94th percentile) on the SAT admissions test." - from Wikipedia

Now, I know that neither of them got a 1975 on the SAT, but Student 2 definately got less than Student 1 on the SAT. Student 2 also most definately did not have a 4.3 GPA.

So, how is it that UC Berkeley admits Student 2, but not Student 1? Does her being Mexican and poor really outweigh Student 1 that much?

By the way, don't get me wrong, I'm friends with both of the students, and although Student 2 is really nice she definately is not as bright or as good of a candidate as Student 1. She even said herself that the only reason she got in was because shes Mexican and poor.

I've never been one to favor affirmative action, and this seems to reinforce that for me, especially when its not like the two applicants were neck and neck, and Berkeley is a very selective school. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong and they let her in mainly because she is poor?

Cliffs
1. Read the two student lists
2. Read the italicized question
3. Discuss

 

[Mo0o]

Yawn. AA has been debated to death

 

[BrownTown]

umm yes, being a minority helps you ALOT for getting into college. also, it should be noted that straight A students with high SAT and AP scores area dime a freakin dozen. I know it doesn't seem that way maybe, but to get into a top school you need something that will stand out from the crowd and make you look unique, otherqise your getting mroe or less a cr@p shoot. TBH, i got into college on the "more or less cr@pshoot" type of way, but its best to have some sort of angle.

 

[Ronstang]

Liberals, that is all you need to know. Merit means little if strictly going by work, achievement, and results excludes a minority. This is just another case where diversity is a sham because it has to be FORCED.

 

[KingofCamelot]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
umm yes, being a minority helps you ALOT for getting into college. also, it should be noted that straight A students with high SAT and AP scores area dime a freakin dozen.

Of course they are fairly common, thats what makes this seem like such a stretch, even for AA. If there are tons of straight A students applying, why did they stoop so low in the pile of applicants to someone who didn't get straight As?

 

[BrownTown]

I still find it funny the GPAs some schools give out, imo a 4.0 is the highest possible grade that can be achieved.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot

Originally posted by: BrownTown
umm yes, being a minority helps you ALOT for getting into college. also, it should be noted that straight A students with high SAT and AP scores area dime a freakin dozen.

Of course they are fairly common, thats what makes this seem like such a stretch, even for AA. If there are tons of straight A students applying, why did they stoop so low in the pile of applicants to someone who didn't get straight As?

Does Berkley have a lot of women?, that could be it, or the race of course. Other than that, there is still alot of luck like I already said, I rmember when me and my friends were applying to colleges some of hte descisions did not make sense (like someone getting into Harvard, but being rejected by a lesser school).

 

[Vette73]

Might be based on family, work/job, etc...

Its a lot easier to get A's if you don;t have to work, have all the bills in the house paid/stable enviroment, etc...

I did ok while in college. But I worked 30-80+ hrs a week soemtimes. I ran my own business, taught some groups, etc... If I had all my bills paid, free living, car, etc... my grades would have gone up easy.

Theres more to entrance then just grades. Also a lot of schools want a writtem letter as well.


Of course some idiots will say soemthing dumb like "Liberals, that is all you need to know." without knowing anything about how schools really work. Let alone as some have pointed out, high GPAs are a dime a dozen now.

 

[waggy]

yeah yeah. AA has made it this way.

 

[Jschmuck2]

Yes. Next question.

 

[KingofCamelot]

Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Yes. Next question.

Yes in the school's eyes, or yes in your eyes?

 

[KingofCamelot]

Originally posted by: Marlin1975
Might be based on family, work/job, etc...

Its a lot easier to get A's if you don;t have to work, have all the bills in the house paid/stable enviroment, etc...

Both have jobs, although as I said Student 1 comes from a better financial background.

 

[Darthvoy]

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot

Originally posted by: BrownTown
umm yes, being a minority helps you ALOT for getting into college. also, it should be noted that straight A students with high SAT and AP scores area dime a freakin dozen.

Of course they are fairly common, thats what makes this seem like such a stretch, even for AA. If there are tons of straight A students applying, why did they stoop so low in the pile of applicants to someone who didn't get straight As?

they probably saw him as a bookworm. Colleges usually prefer people who are going to be well rounded and such and not be in the dorms/house all the time studying. I spoke to the Dean of admissions for Harvey Mudd college and that's pretty much what he told me. They seperated people in the dorm buildings. The nerds/bookworms had their own building and the others were in "the cool" buildings and such.

 

[George P Burdell]

I'm playing devil's advocate: did you read their college admission essays?

 

[KingofCamelot]

Originally posted by: George P Burdell
I'm playing devil's advocate: did you read their college admission essays?

Nope. Although, I know how Student 2 writes, and shes not the best writer.

BTW, I'm not saying that Student 1 should have been admitted, because I realize UC Berkeley is quite selective. Its the fact that he had a 50-50 shot that makes it so surprising that someone not as good as him in general got in.

 

[Mo0o]

you've seriously never heard of AA?

 

[KingofCamelot]

Originally posted by: Darthvoy

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot

Originally posted by: BrownTown
umm yes, being a minority helps you ALOT for getting into college. also, it should be noted that straight A students with high SAT and AP scores area dime a freakin dozen.

Of course they are fairly common, thats what makes this seem like such a stretch, even for AA. If there are tons of straight A students applying, why did they stoop so low in the pile of applicants to someone who didn't get straight As?

they probably saw him as a bookworm. Colleges usually prefer people who are going to be well rounded and such and not be in the dorms/house all the time studying. I spoke to the Dean of admissions for Harvey Mudd college and that's pretty much what he told me. They seperated people in the dorm buildings. The nerds/bookworms had their own building and the others were in "the cool" buildings and such.

Wouldn't everyone be a bookworm when Berkeley usually only takes 4.3 GPAs and 2000+ SAT scores? As I said, he also plays sports, so I think he should have come off fairly well rounded.

 

[KingofCamelot]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
you've seriously never heard of AA?

Who are you talking to? If you're talking to me, learn reading comprehension, I mention AA in the OP.

The discussion in this thread is about how far AA should be taken, and if financial situations play a larger part in decisions than AA?

Plus, according to California Proposition 209 you aren't even supposed to favor by race.

 

[Kelvrick]

I have two friends, both named Dinh.

There nicknames were smart dinh and stupid dinh.

Smart dinh got perfect sat's back in the 1600 days, stupid dinh got around 1200. Smart dinh 4.3, stupid dinh 3.4.

Smart dinh great writer, dunno about stupid dinh. Smart dinh didn't get into Berk, stupid dinh did.

Sports wise, both were in wrestling 4 years and did basically the same clubs.

*shrugs shoulders*

EDIT: Although my sister just got all her acceptances back. Stanford, USC, UCB, UCLA, UCSD and UCI.

 

[ppdes]

I went to a highly ranked engineering school, they were so desperate for female students that they would often pay for a flight and lodging if the girl was willing to come check out the school.

 

[KingofCamelot]

Originally posted by: Kelvrick
I have two friends, both named Dinh.

There nicknames were smart dinh and stupid dinh.

Smart dinh got perfect sat's back in the 1600 days, stupid dinh got around 1200. Smart dinh 4.3, stupid dinh 3.4.

Smart dinh great writer, dunno about stupid dinh. Smart dinh didn't get into Berk, stupid dinh did.

Sports wise, both were in wrestling 4 years and did basically the same clubs.

*shrugs shoulders*

EDIT: Although my sister just got all her acceptances back. Stanford, USC, UCB, UCLA, UCSD and UCI.

Hmm, so some of it might just come down to imperfect admissions decisions?

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: Ronstang
Liberals, that is all you need to know. Merit means little if strictly going by work, achievement, and results excludes a minority. This is just another case where diversity is a sham because it has to be FORCED.

Not quite. Your post just indicates how little you know about the college system. This is surprising, since you're apparently a die hard conservative (normal people don't badmouth liberals unless they know what they're talking about, which you do not)

Do you realize how many minority scholarships exist? This is PURELY a money issue. A good Mexican student can get 10x more money and remain debt-free than a white student. Gender is also a big role, there are many scholarships for women (and then you get into scholarships that are purely for women of certain heritages).

Berkeley, being a public school, is accepting the student that is less likely to need a job to get through school and is more likely to actually pay the tuition/fees since the scholarship foundations will be paying them for her, whereas the white male student may fall on hard times through no fault of his own and be unable to pay for additional semesters.

This is purely a matter of statistics of money. You have two students

Student A has unknown financial status and has a very low likelihood of getting outside financial support not counting family or debt.

Student B has unknown financial status but a VERY VERY HIGH likelihood of receiving outside scholarships, grants, and other sources of funding that do not include family or debt.

Do you now understand the fiscal reason behind this? Unless student A was an outstanding athlete (in which case Berkeley will want him to bring more sports funds to the university), Student B is the better choice financially.

There, now you understand why this has nothing to do with affirmative action or liberals. Now go talk to the hundreds of female mexicans that DID NOT get in because they had worse grades and were less likely to receive outside financial support.

You also have to remember that getting into college is a lot like playing craps. I know someone that got accepted to Harvard and UC Berkeley but rejected from UCLA. Berkeley >>> UCLA. Harvard goes without questioning. This was a mexican male, mind you.

 

[Darthvoy]

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot

Originally posted by: Darthvoy

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot

Originally posted by: BrownTown
umm yes, being a minority helps you ALOT for getting into college. also, it should be noted that straight A students with high SAT and AP scores area dime a freakin dozen.

Of course they are fairly common, thats what makes this seem like such a stretch, even for AA. If there are tons of straight A students applying, why did they stoop so low in the pile of applicants to someone who didn't get straight As?

they probably saw him as a bookworm. Colleges usually prefer people who are going to be well rounded and such and not be in the dorms/house all the time studying. I spoke to the Dean of admissions for Harvey Mudd college and that's pretty much what he told me. They seperated people in the dorm buildings. The nerds/bookworms had their own building and the others were in "the cool" buildings and such.

Wouldn't everyone be a bookworm when Berkeley usually only takes 4.3 GPAs and 2000+ SAT scores? As I said, he also plays sports, so I think he should have come off fairly well rounded.

yeah but you don't know what other extra curricular (sp) activities they both did. Just because he played sport doesn't mean crap. People like friend 1 are a dime a dozen and UC Berkely probably has thousands who are just the same as friend # 1 to choose from. Why would anybody want a school with nothing but nerds and people with 4.3 gpa's?

 

[Whisper]

Originally posted by: Darthvoy

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot

Originally posted by: Darthvoy

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot

Originally posted by: BrownTown
umm yes, being a minority helps you ALOT for getting into college. also, it should be noted that straight A students with high SAT and AP scores area dime a freakin dozen.

Of course they are fairly common, thats what makes this seem like such a stretch, even for AA. If there are tons of straight A students applying, why did they stoop so low in the pile of applicants to someone who didn't get straight As?

they probably saw him as a bookworm. Colleges usually prefer people who are going to be well rounded and such and not be in the dorms/house all the time studying. I spoke to the Dean of admissions for Harvey Mudd college and that's pretty much what he told me. They seperated people in the dorm buildings. The nerds/bookworms had their own building and the others were in "the cool" buildings and such.

Wouldn't everyone be a bookworm when Berkeley usually only takes 4.3 GPAs and 2000+ SAT scores? As I said, he also plays sports, so I think he should have come off fairly well rounded.

yeah but you don't know what other extra curricular (sp) activities they both did. Just because he played sport doesn't mean crap. People like friend 1 are a dime a dozen and UC Berkely probably has thousands who are just the same as friend # 1 to choose from. Why would anybody want a school with nothing but nerds and people with 4.3 gpa's?

From what I remember, UC Berkley does in some ways take race/ethnicity into account for a certain percentage of their applications. Why? Lots of reasons. To increase diversity on campus (which, they feel, is at times more important than having a homogeneous population), to offer educational opportunities to individuals who will likely go on to become social advocates, etc.

Essentially, while high school GPA and SAT scores are about the fairest "colorblind" way of rating students, they don't predict a whole lot in terms of college success...and they predict even less when it comes to post-college accomplishment. That's why they give weight to a handful of "intangibles," race being one among them.

 

[everman]

While kids are always taught that school is a meritocracy, it certainly is not even close. To me "Affirmative Action" for "under represented minorities" is like saying we must lower the bar for this race of people because they are all stupid, if we did not then none of them would get in, I find that abhorrent but that's how the system works.