Something Weird About College Admissions

[SoLiDus88]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: SoLiDus88
Straight As and couldn't even break 2000 on the SATs? wow ****** high school.

Minority status is a huge factor for college admissions. I am asian and technically a minority, but over represented in higher education. oh well.

a comparison of grades vs. SAT scores aren't always indicative of how intelligent you are. some people simply test poorly. not to mention that SAT's are a crock since you can take preparation courses and BS like that (i consider SAT prep work and/or courses tantamount to cheating, but that's just me).

Yes. The SATs are more of a reflection of being prepared rather then being intelligent (although I do know people who did almost zero preparation and scored near perfect). Its the only way (and a pretty bad way) to bring standardization to the admission process. How would you know how to compare different high schools if their grading system is not the same?

 

[McCartney]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA so true Slew foot
I'm ready for residency, it's gonna be ugly

I'm not going to help poor people or because someone in my family was sick when I was young (ROFL talk about cliche answer on the interview)

 

[mrkun]

When will people realize that medical school and law school are some of the most horribly inefficient ways to become rich?

 

[McCartney]

my family has money, I'm doing it for self fulfillment. My "real job" will be commercial development with my father.
I'm SIkh, so once I become a doctor or if I become a doctor I will be able to follow the ways of the Guru much better by helping others and not myself

Being a doctor for me is to alleviate spiritual guilt and help others with no benefit to me.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Ronstang
Liberals, that is all you need to know. Merit means little if strictly going by work, achievement, and results excludes a minority. This is just another case where diversity is a sham because it has to be FORCED.

blah, blah, blah...

Student B has unknown financial status but a VERY VERY HIGH likelihood of receiving outside scholarships, grants, and other sources of funding that do not include family or debt.

Do you now understand the fiscal reason behind this? Unless student A was an outstanding athlete (in which case Berkeley will want him to bring more sports funds to the university), Student B is the better choice financially.

Blah, blah, blah...

And why does student B have a better chance at outside scholarships, grants, and "other sources of funding that do not include family or debt"?

Oh, right, AA and liberals.

Next.

ZV

 

[thereaderrabbit]

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot
Well, decisions from UC Berkeley came back yesterday, and I noticed something odd at my school.

Student 1
*Straight As all 4 years. I saw his transcript myself and I don't think there was a single A- on it
*~4.33 GPA (guessing)
*AP and Honors classes
*Did sports
*Did fairly well on SAT
*White
*Male
*Financially stable

Student 2
*Did not get straight As. Haven't seen her transcript, but I figure its a peppering of As and Bs, with atleast one C (AP class)
*~4.00 GPA (guessing)
*AP and Honors classes
*Didn't do sports (not positive)
*Did worse than Student 1 on SAT
*Overall not as smart as Student 1
*Mexican
*Female
*Poor

"UC Berkeley is perennially the most selective school in the UC system and one of the most selective universities in the United States....an acceptance rate of 23.5%. The average person admitted to the university as a freshman in 2005 had a weighted GPA of 4.33, and those who matriculated in 2006 had an average GPA of 4.26 and average score of 1975 out of 2400 (approximately 94th percentile) on the SAT admissions test." - from Wikipedia

Now, I know that neither of them got a 1975 on the SAT, but Student 2 definately got less than Student 1 on the SAT. Student 2 also most definately did not have a 4.3 GPA.

So, how is it that UC Berkeley admits Student 2, but not Student 1? Does her being Mexican and poor really outweigh Student 1 that much?

By the way, don't get me wrong, I'm friends with both of the students, and although Student 2 is really nice she definately is not as bright or as good of a candidate as Student 1. She even said herself that the only reason she got in was because shes Mexican and poor.

I've never been one to favor affirmative action, and this seems to reinforce that for me, especially when its not like the two applicants were neck and neck, and Berkeley is a very selective school. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong and they let her in mainly because she is poor?

Cliffs
1. Read the two student lists
2. Read the italicized question
3. Discuss

KingofCamelot,

Am I missing something from your OP? How do you know student 2 is not as smart as student 1? Did you also realize that there are after school activities besides sports? Did you know that some people worked during high school sometimes at the expense of after school activities?

What proof do you have that you found the typical case for UC Berkeley? Based on the Wikipedia data it seems you found the exception and not the rule.

Also, did you know definately is spelled 'definitely'?

-Reader

PS. And no, you don't sound that bright when you pick at the data.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Dacalo
Or how about this:

Student 1:
*4.4X GPA
*AP and honors classes
*Took college level calculus senior year
*An officer of FBLA, member of Golden Key, and Academic Decathelon
*HS tennis team
*Did fairly well on SAT
*Asian
*Financially stable
*Male

Student 2:
*Sub 4.0 GPA
*A couple of honors, no AP
*Pre-calculus
*Not a member of any clubs
*Did worse than Student 1
*White
*Financially stable
*Female

And Student 2 got in, but Student 1 didn't. Student 1 was me 9 years ago. Fvck you Berkeley! Although UCLA and Davis accepted me. No my essay didn't suck.

Both engineers?

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
I still find it funny the GPAs some schools give out, imo a 4.0 is the highest possible grade that can be achieved.

They try to distinguish between people who get straight A's in regular classes vs straight A's with a mix of college level classes or advanced classes. That's what my school did and we report both weighted (5 for honors) and unweighted (4 across the board)

 

[Parasitic]

Well the important thing is that you got into UC Berkeley.
Have fun at Cal.

Edit: if you didn't, then I'm sorry. You fail at life and at ATOT.

 

[moshquerade]

reverse discrimination.

 

[mrkun]

Originally posted by: moshquerade
reverse discrimination.

How many times do people have to post that there is no Affirmative Action used for any public universities in California?

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: mrkun

Originally posted by: moshquerade
reverse discrimination.

How many times do people have to post that there is no Affirmative Action used for any public universities in California?

if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

 

[mrkun]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: mrkun

Originally posted by: moshquerade
reverse discrimination.

How many times do people have to post that there is no Affirmative Action used for any public universities in California?

if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

Buses carry passengers, have wheels, and depart from a terminal. Airplanes carry passengers, have wheels, and depart from a terminal. Therefore bus = airplane?

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: mrkun

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: mrkun

Originally posted by: moshquerade
reverse discrimination.

How many times do people have to post that there is no Affirmative Action used for any public universities in California?

if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

Buses carry passengers, have wheels, and depart from a terminal. Airplanes carry passengers, have wheels, and depart from a terminal. Therefore bus = airplane?

nope, but they are both modes of transportation and therefore possess similarities although differently named.

 

[mrkun]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: mrkun

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: mrkun

Originally posted by: moshquerade
reverse discrimination.

How many times do people have to post that there is no Affirmative Action used for any public universities in California?

if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck.

Buses carry passengers, have wheels, and depart from a terminal. Airplanes carry passengers, have wheels, and depart from a terminal. Therefore bus = airplane?

nope, but they are both modes of transportation and therefore possess similarities although differently named.

Right. AA and "comprehensive review" are similar in that they both use non-academic criteria to evaluate applicants; they are not, however, the same thing. As others have stated, the UCs place a lot of emphasis on the applicants' essays.

Anyway, it should be pretty clear demographically that there is no AA at the UCs.

California population breakdown (2005, US Census Bureau):

White 43.3%
Hispanic 35.5%
Asian 12.4%
Black 6.1%
American Indian 0.7%

U.C. Berkeley undergraduate ethnic composition (Fall 2006; I excluded the "no ethnic data given" students):

Asian 46.3%
White 35.3%
Hispanic 12.2%
Black 3.9%
Other 1.7%
Native American 0.6%

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: Ronstang
Liberals, that is all you need to know. Merit means little if strictly going by work, achievement, and results excludes a minority. This is just another case where diversity is a sham because it has to be FORCED.

Not quite. Your post just indicates how little you know about the college system. This is surprising, since you're apparently a die hard conservative (normal people don't badmouth liberals unless they know what they're talking about, which you do not)

Do you realize how many minority scholarships exist? This is PURELY a money issue. A good Mexican student can get 10x more money and remain debt-free than a white student. Gender is also a big role, there are many scholarships for women (and then you get into scholarships that are purely for women of certain heritages).

Berkeley, being a public school, is accepting the student that is less likely to need a job to get through school and is more likely to actually pay the tuition/fees since the scholarship foundations will be paying them for her, whereas the white male student may fall on hard times through no fault of his own and be unable to pay for additional semesters.

This is purely a matter of statistics of money. You have two students

Student A has unknown financial status and has a very low likelihood of getting outside financial support not counting family or debt.

Student B has unknown financial status but a VERY VERY HIGH likelihood of receiving outside scholarships, grants, and other sources of funding that do not include family or debt.

Do you now understand the fiscal reason behind this? Unless student A was an outstanding athlete (in which case Berkeley will want him to bring more sports funds to the university), Student B is the better choice financially.

There, now you understand why this has nothing to do with affirmative action or liberals. Now go talk to the hundreds of female mexicans that DID NOT get in because they had worse grades and were less likely to receive outside financial support.

You also have to remember that getting into college is a lot like playing craps. I know someone that got accepted to Harvard and UC Berkeley but rejected from UCLA. Berkeley >>> UCLA. Harvard goes without questioning. This was a mexican male, mind you.

Have a source for this claim?

 

[ColdFusion718]

Originally posted by: mrkun

Originally posted by: ColdFusion718
The UCs are pretty much all the same in terms of quality of education. It's all about prestige.

This is probably true to a large extent at the undergraduate level. However, at the graduate level there's quite a distinction between Cal and UCR/UCSC.

Definitely. Yeah I was referring to the undergrad level. When you're talking about grad school, that's a completely different game. Each UC has its specialty. For example, when you talk about going to vet school, most people will think of UCD.

 

[yowolabi]

First of all, I'd like everyone with a "One friend 5.6gpa, one friend 1.6 gpa" to post the entire college application online including all the references and essays, and what department they applied to. I'm sure you've never heard of this, but people have been known to exaggerate online to prove a point. If you've never even seen the entire college application, including references and essays, you really have no call to complain, because you don't have enough information to judge if anyone has been slighted. You may know for sure that one of your friends is better prepared for college, but you have no idea if that came across to someone who has never met any of the applicants.

Second point, no college wants to have an incoming class of 95% white males. Sorry if that hurts anyone, but let's be realistic. The qualified women and racial minorities wouldn't even apply to that school anymore because they wouldn't want to be the only ones. Eventually even top white males wouldn't want to go to that school. They'd be more worried about the lack of women than the lack of blacks or hispanics, but either way even they would prefer to go a diverse school.

 

[mrkun]

Originally posted by: yowolabi
Second point, no college wants to have an incoming class of 95% white males. Sorry if that hurts anyone, but let's be realistic. The qualified women and racial minorities wouldn't even apply to that school anymore because they wouldn't want to be the only ones. Eventually even top white males wouldn't want to go to that school. They'd be more worried about the lack of women than the lack of blacks or hispanics, but either way even they would prefer to go a diverse school.

I'm not sure that's true. I think Berkeley's engineering school is like 90% Asian male, and lots of people still apply. lol

 

[KingofCamelot]

Originally posted by: thereaderrabbit
KingofCamelot,

Am I missing something from your OP? How do you know student 2 is not as smart as student 1? Did you also realize that there are after school activities besides sports? Did you know that some people worked during high school sometimes at the expense of after school activities?

What proof do you have that you found the typical case for UC Berkeley? Based on the Wikipedia data it seems you found the exception and not the rule.

Also, did you know definately is spelled 'definitely'?

-Reader

PS. And no, you don't sound that bright when you pick at the data.

Lets see, how do I know Student 2 isn't as smart as Student 1. Well, I have known them both since 6th grade, so I think after 7 years I'd have a fairly good grasp on which one is smarter.

Neither student did any other after school activities of note. As I mentioned earlier, both work, although I think Student 2 puts in more time on the job.

I realize that this is the exception and not the rule...which is maybe why I posted a thread asking for possible explanations to said exception.

Yes, I did know that definitely is spelled definitely, but thanks for finding my one typo and trying to make me look like an idiot. Please come again.

To those that asked earlier, I found out the major for Student 2 but I keep forgetting to ask Student 1.

Student 2 applied as a forestry major, which probably explains a lot of the discrepancies.

 

[mrkun]

Originally posted by: KingofCamelot
Student 2 applied as a forestry major, which probably explains a lot of the discrepancies.

/thread

 

[imported_Lothar]

I find it funny that people are complaining about being hurt by Affirmative Action, but yet foreign students still get shoved much worse compared to American citizens.

Everyone SHOULD be held to the same standard.
Whether you're an American citizen or a foreign student should be irrelevant. Whether you're white or black should be irrelevant.

 

[maziwanka]

Originally posted by: Mo0o
Yawn. AA has been debated to death

 

[Skotty]

What retard started the whole over 4.0 scale? Talk about a system for the weak.

 

[mrkun]

Originally posted by: Skotty
What retard started the whole over 4.0 scale? Talk about a system for the weak.

Two reasons: 1) AP classes are more difficult than regular college classes, and 2) its a way to further differentiate between students. If there were no weighted scale like there is now, there would like 5x as many people with 4.0's, thus making it more difficult to distinguish (in the GPA) between a person that got a 4.0 taking only regular HS classes and a person that had a 4.0 who's essentially finished their first college semester already.