Sonikku finally committed! By Blizzard no less

[Ruptga]

but becoming a ridiculously over-educated-ivory-tower-intellectual-ninny has worked out very well for me.

I was diagnosed as depressed for about a year, my situation was similar to OP's wrt the hopeless job search and the crushing poverty. I already had a BA, but I went back to school to get something more marketable that also fit me better. Long story short, I got good grades at a "good" school in a "good" major right up until I left because it was clear they had zero interest in teaching marketable skills. I was there to buy job training, not a bunch of math and tangential bullshit that I could pick up from Wikipedia. I moved to a major city where I also have a bunch of family, and I worked part time at a couple temporary jobs that they'd alerted me to while I took a couple online classes. I was trying to use those to segue into a related but explicitly profession-oriented program, but when the opportunity to go full-time at a place I'd temped at came up, I took it. The online classes were seriously half-assed, and if I'd stuck with it I'd have gotten a degree but not the confidence to make it through an interview because I wouldn't have known what I was talking about. I was tired of taking out debt for things did not deliver.

I could have stayed at that full-time job forever, but that was too depressing to consider so around December I seriously started looking for anything IT related at all, help desk, assistant to the head cable bitch, whatever. I got nothing whatsoever, the market is flooded with BS holders to the point that you need one to pick up a phone and ask them to turn it off then on again. I ended up giving up on that too and looking at any local company related to computers. I fairly quickly found one that does electronics recycling, they wanted someone that could drive a box truck and knows a monitor from a hard drive. I'd finally found something at least vaguely interesting for which I was not merely qualified, but overqualified, so I applied. I've been working there for around two months now, and I'm making about 40% more than I did at the other place (mostly because of over-the-road time, but I don't mind that).

My takeaways are:
- Fuck college, its ROI is terrible unless it's a real hands-on work-oriented program, which is rare. Even then, it requires a lot of dedication and commitment.
- Move wherever you have an advantage. For me it was a city where a good 15 adult relatives live, their word-of-mouth job leads made getting a start attainable.
- Look at types of work that you've written off as not having a future or being too unrewarding. I don't anticipate a lot of upward mobility as a driver, but I like the work and it pays. Anything that could possibly be good enough to do for a year or two is good enough to try.
- Be overqualified, everyone else is. It's stupid, but it's the economy we live in.
- Skim Indeed, etc., and do apply to anything interesting, but the odds of any one person sticking out from the crowd on those sites are really bad. Look for companies that aren't massive and do let you apply on their site, you're more likely to be noticed.
- Driving is very easy to get into, unless of course you're a shitty driver. A chauffeur's license is easy to get and (probably depending on the state) is all you need to get going with anything up to a mid-size box truck, being able to handle a stick is not necessary. It's not for everyone by any stretch, but if you're not afraid of getting your hands dirty or lifting things then you've got a leg up on a significant fraction of drivers. That goes double for being willing to go over the road for up to a week, but in-town courier isn't a bad gig either.

Of course, the disclaimer about survivorship bias applies to me too.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

*snip*

Fuck College, but be overqualified?

Anyway, the math don't lie. Go to college and study something useful. Take your generals at a community college, go to an affordable state school and not some super-exclusive private college, don't become a doctor or a lawyer, and the ROI is 2-3 years tops.

That's assuming you're clear to embark on the process, of course. If you have other stuff going on, then you make do.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Fuck College, but be overqualified?

Anyway, the math don't lie. Go to college and study something useful. Take your generals at a community college, go to an affordable state school and not some super-exclusive private college, don't become a doctor or a lawyer, and the ROI is 2-3 years tops.

That's assuming you're clear to embark on the process, of course. If you have other stuff going on, then you make do.

Yep.

Or even go to CC and focus being an electrician, plumber, or mason. The ROI is about 1 year after a 2 year investment.

But then I, too, found becoming an effete ivory tower liberal has paid huge dividends.

 

[Ruptga]

Fuck College, but be overqualified?

Anyway, the math don't lie. Go to college and study something useful. Take your generals at a community college, go to an affordable state school and not some super-exclusive private college, don't become a doctor or a lawyer, and the ROI is 2-3 years tops.

That's assuming you're clear to embark on the process, of course. If you have other stuff going on, then you make do.

You're presuming that a college education is the ultimate qualification, which is just not universally true. I was overqualified by having a CDL, not just a chauffeur's license, and because I've been doing this computer thing as a hobby for over a decade. I also demonstrated in the interview that I was smart, reasonable, and had drive, things that no experienced supervisor will assume about an employee. College gives you a piece of paper that says you're good at making it through college, full stop. There's a lot more to being a valuable employee, and even where a degree is necessary it is not sufficient.

Your ROI is also completely wrong. A Bachelor's typically increases earnings by 20% over HS alone, which means earning 42k/yr instead of 35k/yr. Now consider the common scenario of a BA costing four years and 80k. Solving 35x = 42(x-4)-80 shows that it will take our graduate 36 years to have more total pay than they would have if they had gone straight into the workforce.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

You're presuming that a college education is the ultimate qualification, which is just not universally true. I was overqualified by having a CDL, not just a chauffeur's license, and because I've been doing this computer thing as a hobby for over a decade. I also demonstrated in the interview that I was smart, reasonable, and had drive, things that no experienced supervisor will assume about an employee. College gives you a piece of paper that says you're good at making it through college, full stop. There's a lot more to being a valuable employee, and even where a degree is necessary it is not sufficient.

Your ROI is also completely wrong. A Bachelor's typically increases earnings by 20% over HS alone, which means earning 42k/yr instead of 35k/yr. Now consider the common scenario of a BA costing four years and 80k. Solving 35x = 42(x-4)-80 shows that it will take our graduate 36 years to have more total pay than they would have if they had gone straight into the workforce.

You got a link for that? The BLS says that a 4-year degree increases median weekly earnings 67% over a HS diploma alone, and there's no reason that a 4-year BA should cost more than $40k.

Also, you're talking lifetime earnings but not taking into account any kind of wage growth, caps, etc.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

You're presuming that a college education is the ultimate qualification, which is just not universally true. I was overqualified by having a CDL, not just a chauffeur's license, and because I've been doing this computer thing as a hobby for over a decade. I also demonstrated in the interview that I was smart, reasonable, and had drive, things that no experienced supervisor will assume about an employee. College gives you a piece of paper that says you're good at making it through college, full stop. There's a lot more to being a valuable employee, and even where a degree is necessary it is not sufficient.

Your ROI is also completely wrong. A Bachelor's typically increases earnings by 20% over HS alone, which means earning 42k/yr instead of 35k/yr. Now consider the common scenario of a BA costing four years and 80k. Solving 35x = 42(x-4)-80 shows that it will take our graduate 36 years to have more total pay than they would have if they had gone straight into the workforce.

You fail to account for the compounding of wages over time; hs alone has zero historic increase outside of inflation; BS sees something around 6%/y on top of inflation (not as starting salary, that too is flat, but as professional increases), leveling out after a decade.

As such 14 years after starting work the HS only has earned 490k while the BS, despite not working for 4 of those years, has earned 590k. Since the cap on under-grad student loans is 57k, payback at 6% interest over a decade is 80k.

This puts the BS 10k up after 1 decade and 40k/y up (75 vs 35) for the rest of this person's life.

This is reflected in comparing median income based on education level:
https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/m...ucation-gender-race-and-ethnicity-in-2014.htm

Which you can see is 34kish for the HS only and 55k for BS only.

Do the math a different way: a person making 34k/y and a person making 55k/y can both live on the same 30k/y. But the 33k/y will only have 4k/y to build wealth with while the 55k/y will have 22k/y.

The HS only may be up 18k in total wealth built ( at 6% growth/ year) at year 4 while the BS is at -80k, but after a decade more of work HS only has saved up 84k while the BS has paid back the student loans and has 210k.


Combine that with the fact that being good at getting a college degree shows you can put up with bullshit and poverty for years in order to invest in a better future, you will also see the kind of folks who get a BS being the kind of folks who invest their 22k as opposed to the kind of folks with HS only being the kind of folks who will blow their left over $330 a month.

Now double all those numbers because HS onlys tend to marry HS onlys while BS or betters tend to marry BS or betters: a household that makes 68k/y and lives on 60 looks a lot different than one that makes 110 and lives on 60.


Simply put; a college degree is still valuable if you want access to some sort of professional career. That said, there's nothing wrong with making less money, it's not like your income tells you how good of a person you are or how valuable you are as a person. But let's not lie about income just because we seem to equivocate between 'valuable' as a person, and 'valuable' in the labor market.

 

[Ruptga]

You got a link for that? The BLS says that a 4-year degree increases median weekly earnings 67% over a HS diploma alone, and there's no reason that a 4-year BA should cost more than $40k.

Also, you're talking lifetime earnings but not taking into account any kind of wage growth, caps, etc.

This was one of the first search hits. Looking more, more recent numbers from Pew agree with your number. Adjusting for that gives 28x = 45.5(x-4)-80 which is 15 years to come out ahead.

Googling "average bachelor's cost" returns a chart showing public four year colleges averaging a total cost of 22k, which I took to be per year. Using the BLS numbers and assuming your 40k, which is reasonable at a cheaper state school, the time to come out ahead is still 13 years. That's good enough that a reasonable person could want that, but that is nowhere near "2-3 years tops".

 

[Dr. Zaus]

This was one of the first search hits. Looking more, more recent numbers from Pew agree with your number. Adjusting for that gives 28x = 45.5(x-4)-80 which is 15 years to come out ahead.

Googling "average bachelor's cost" returns a chart showing public four year colleges averaging a total cost of 22k, which I took to be per year. Using the BLS numbers and assuming your 40k, which is reasonable at a cheaper state school, the time to come out ahead is still 13 years. That's good enough that a reasonable person could want that, but that is nowhere near "2-3 years tops".

My numbers are better and show you are wrong.

 

[Ruptga]

This puts the BS 10k up after 1 decade and 40k/y up (75 vs 35) for the rest of this person's life.

...

The HS only may be up 18k in total wealth built ( at 6% growth/ year) at year 4 while the BS is at -80k, but after a decade more of work HS only has saved up 84k while the BS has paid back the student loans and has 210k.

Yes, that's the TL: DR of the argument. College has very real advantages, it also takes a long time to work out, time that very poor people don't really have. 200k in ten years is not very helpful for someone starving today, you know? You two made it out to be so simple, just go to college and make more money, but that is a gross oversimplification that contributes to the trend of shoveling as many bodies into colleges as possible without considering what really benefits each person. It's incredibly stressful to be someone in college that doesn't fit the system, you do a disservice to a lot of people with your advice.

My numbers are better and show you are wrong.

Yes, detailed math beats quick math. Your ribbon is in the mail, but wrong is an overstatement. Accounting for wage compounding is the difference between 13 years and 10, my point still stands. A 2-3 year ROI is rosy bullshit, and if the goal is to earn a living the question is a lot bigger than which major to pick.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I GET A RIBBON!

Finally, after decades of trolling, I get SOMETHING for all my hard work.

You two made it out to be so simple, just go to college and make more money, but that is a gross oversimplification

Yep! The kinds of things that make you entirely unemployable at no education keep you entirely unemployable at a Ph.D.

But the education helps reveal that it's a psychological disorder, rather than a lack of personal human capital.

it also takes a long time to work out, time that very poor people don't really have. 200k in ten years is not very helpful for someone starving today, you know?

I come from a family of 5, my mother was a Deny's waitress, my dad disabled for two decades. I got my first degree in 2007 after 7 years of working and failing my way through undergrad. After undergrad I started grad work and a family. Seven years later I had four kids, 150k in debt, and had never made more than 25k/y. Now I have a Ph.D. and make well more than a living wage. BTW, Income based repayment makes it so you only need to pay 10% of what you earn over 150% of poverty (which is median income for someone with a trade skill); so college pays back even after student loans or you don't have to pay.

So I do KNOW what it's like to starve (be kicked out of apartments for not paying rent, have my electricity cut off in 110 degree weather, buy 6 eggs instead of 12 because that's all you can afford to go along with your beans and rice) for the first 33 years of my life.

I also KNOW everyone comes from their own world: I was determined to exit government subsidized housing when I was 8 and asked "how do people stop being poor" and my parents told me "learn about computers." Without that formative experience I never would have joined this form, written enough to overcome my dyslexia, or had the trade-skills needed to maintain myself and my family starting in my sophomore year of high-school when I started selling computers I built.

I'm definitely the winner of survivor ship bias... actually I'm the loser: I dropped out of college twice, and was kicked out of one PH.D. program. It was that last one that made me realize that I had a personality disorder: I was a total jerk when I thought people were wrong. I've realized that being a person among others isn't about being right, it's about getting along and sharing experiences.

 

[Ruptga]

You spent 7 years getting a Bachelor's AND you get to be called doctor? Nice.

Anyway, I feel like we've reached a kind of understanding here.

We can now rest easy knowing that our dear OP will make her life decisions relating to college fully informed.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

You spent 7 years getting a Bachelor's AND you get to be called doctor? Nice.

Anyway, I feel like we've reached a kind of understanding here.

We can now rest easy knowing that our dear OP will make her life decisions relating to college fully informed.

Thanks for presenting the counter point - I agree it provided for a more nuanced discussion that is thus more likely to help the OP as she journeys forward.

 

[Sonikku]

I have a bit of an update everyone. I haven't posted a lot on anandtech lately; I have been so very busy with doctors and specialists. But I may finally have a partial breakthrough. For the very first time I'm heading to New York City. The reason? To go to Doctor Jess Ting's office at Mount Sinai Hospital for what I hope will be the first step in getting surgery!! An excerpt from the email I received;

Hi Katie



As per our conversation today, you are scheduled as follows:



August 15, 2017



Matthew Dominguez (Psychiatrist) @ 9:00am

Ida Hammer (Social Work) @ 10:00am

Tamar Reisman (Initial Consult) @ 11:00am

I rely on volunteer transport and they're fighting me on taking me all the way to NYC, so I'm grateful they were able to cluster all the appointments back to back to back. I am equal parts excited and anxious. He reportedly accepts "different forms" of Medicaid (There was more than one? I had no idea), but there's no word yet on if he'll accept my Medicaid. It will be devastating if he doesn't, but for now I am trying to remain cautiously optimistic.

 

[Pulsar]

I have a bit of an update everyone. I haven't posted a lot on anandtech lately; I have been so very busy with doctors and specialists. But I may finally have a partial breakthrough. For the very first time I'm heading to New York City. The reason? To go to Doctor Jess Ting's office at Mount Sinai Hospital for what I hope will be the first step in getting surgery!! An excerpt from the email I received;



I rely on volunteer transport and they're fighting me on taking me all the way to NYC, so I'm grateful they were able to cluster all the appointments back to back to back. I am equal parts excited and anxious. He reportedly accepts "different forms" of Medicaid (There was more than one? I had no idea), but there's no word yet on if he'll accept my Medicaid. It will be devastating if he doesn't, but for now I am trying to remain cautiously optimistic.

No - it won't be devastating. It will just be an obstacle that you'll find some way to overcome. I've fought through depression and some other issues, and one of the biggest things I've learned is that nothing is insurmountable. But if you build it up in your mind (this is going to fix everything!!!!!!) then you set yourself up for failure if one thing goes wrong. It's a road - not a single step. Remember it.

 

[Paratus]

Good luck!

 

[William Gaatjes]

Hope you will succeed.

 

[Exterous]

Glad to see you're still around - I was getting worried

 

[NesuD]

Good news! Hoping for a positive outcome for you.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Each state has their own medicaid plan, likely with all different rules for claim submission, perhaps thats what was meant by different medicaids? In any case, good luck to you, and be safe!

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Cheers!

 

[BudAshes]

This could be the greatest troll job since nowhere mom.

If not, then even if I don't understand your pain, I hope you figure out some small way to find happiness. Man, women whatever, no one has a blueprint for life. We are all just hurtling through space on a big rock together battling our animal instincts with our burgeoning self awareness.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Yep.

Or even go to CC and focus being an electrician, plumber, or mason. The ROI is about 1 year after a 2 year investment.

But then I, too, found becoming an effete ivory tower liberal has paid huge dividends.

This.

I also went to college under the question of "What will get me a job that pays well?" Instead of the guidance counselor bullshit of "What do you like to do?"

 

[Aikouka]

If I've learned one thing about depression, one aspect of it is your mental outlook. You know those cartoons where everything is bright and sunny, but the one character has a rain cloud over them at all times? That's pretty much what depression feels like to the depressed person. That ends up making things worse, because it makes you even more depressed to see everything going so well for everyone else. The reason why I bring this up is because it's something that you have to try and train yourself out of doing. Essentially, everyone has their own rain cloud, but it's just so hard to see it when yours is pouring down on you.

It wasn't spyware. In case it was not evident, my transfriend who I bid my goodbye to in WoW had reported me to Blizzard immediately after our conversation and Blizzard took it from there.

I'm kind of surprised that people thought that Blizzard actively monitored chat.

 

[kt]

I don't know you but have seen your posts here and there since I do a lot of lurking around here. Your writing suggests you're an articulate and genuine person. All signs of an intelligent human being and that's it, no label. I am glad that you are still with us and things are starting to turn around for you. Hope your trip to NYC goes smoothly and everything works out for you.

 

[Stopsignhank]

I hope things work out for you.

For the rest of ATOT. Anyone know how to set up a Gofundme account for Katie? I don't have to light my cuban cigars with a $20 bills this weekend could send them her way instead.