Sounds 'card' for headphone use (gaming) advice?

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
412
107
116
My MB audio is having problems (right speaker does not work on multiple connected headphones) so I am considering just getting a dedicated audio device (sound card).

I have not bought one in a while and would like help
- internal vs external (magni +mobi combination)
- recommendations under $200 ?

my headphones are Philips X2/27 which I do like
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
If I were going to buy a sound card, I'd personally go with the AE-5. It requires a molex connection if you want to power the RGB lights, but otherwise the PCIe slot powers it for sound if you don't care about lights.

It is their newest card, so it will receive software/driver updates more often than their older cards (newest driver is from Feb 8).

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._70sb174000000_sound_blasterx_ae_5_sound.html

Some users here have reported they have had good luck using Asus sound cards (with Windows 10 default drivers, or the Uni drivers). Asus has all but stopped updating their drivers for them however (which is another company's sound chip they use on their cards).

http://maxedtech.com/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,908
20,200
136
I have a higher end Schiit DAC and a different brand amp but I find it a great setup for gaming as well as listening to music. Positional audio is quite good in BF1. I'd go external, you can always upgrade the DAC part later and still use the same AMP or vice versa.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,619
2,188
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i would instead recommend you get a motherboard with ALC1150 and call it a day. You will get the same quality for less money and you will be on a new motherboard, which, is, good.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,619
2,188
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Even 10 years ago people were saying not just "my dedicated is better than your integrated", but would to great lengths explain the characteristics of the audio spectrum they would get out of their cards, which are what essentially is now the ALC883.

Which has been surpassed by the ALC888.

And that one's been surpassed by the ALC1150. There's probably a few in between as well but, it doesn't matter.

If you even get a old mobo with the ALC888, you will have the equivalent of what a few years back made people rave with the "insert various descriptions of audio perfection here".
If at that date they did not say "although there are clear deformations withing the spectrum and i can tell how horrible such and such is, this is still good", then it means the reproduction is close enough that you cannot hear the faults within it.
And they didn't. And you can't.

And today we are 3 full generations past that. They had faultless audio reproduction long ago and they have faultless audio reproduction now.
The only reason why you would NOT to use a integrated sound card is if you are listening to such high volume where you can notice the difference in dynamic range, which is minor anyway, and the whole issue can be circumverted by feeding the output into a high wattage amp.
 
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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136
I've informally A/B compared onboard ALC889 against a Schiit Modi DAC. Plugged them both into a Sherwood RX-4109 receiver via RCA cables to use as a headphone amp and changed back and forth in Windows and on the receiver at the same time. There was a surprisingly massive difference in quality between the two, which was unfortunate for me because I was hoping to sell the Modi. The onboard sounded muffled and flat in comparison ... in other words sucked at reproducing higher frequencies.

Sure, the Realtek ALCxxx chips are probably very good DACs, but there is a lot more to amplifier design than that. There's the DAC chip itself, which in this day and age is likely as close to perfect as you can get. Then there's the preamp to bring the level up for input to the power amp, which drives your source. As a EE with at least a bit of experience designing amps, I know that there are many ways to do it wrong, and there are a few places you don't want to put your preamp circuit, such as inside an extremely high EMI PC case.

All that said, the onboard I compared to was on a low end board. I use a fancier high end board with ALC1150 now and very likely better amplifier design, but haven't bothered to test it out again. I already have the Modi+Magni combo, which is indeed very good but probably overpriced for what it is (simple circuits in a nice box with some not very advanced engineering competency behind them, but competency nonetheless). It's nice to not have to worry about whether or not future motherboard upgrades have decent onboard sound and to know that no matter what future technology brings, this setup is already perfect, quite literally.
 

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
412
107
116
Thank you all - my problem is that I have an issue with motherboard which somehow allows me to hear only one (left) driver on headphones when connected to either front or back analog jack. Here is my thread http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/asrock-x370-taichi-weird-sound-problem.2538226/ , not resolved.

I explicitly purchased Asrock Taichi X370 to enjoy better(?) sound hardware in form of ALC1220 so my choices are
- figure out how to fix existing motherboard/windows 10 settings (same problem on multiple headphone pairs, same headphone pairs work fine as stereo everywhere else)
- send motherboard in for RMA (which is what ASRock responded with) and take downtime
- buy internal sound card
- buy something like Modi 2 + Magni 3

question - how does ALC1200 compare to either AE-5 or Shiit modi+magni stack ?

Any other questions or suggestions would be welcome...
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
question - how does ALC1200 compare to either AE-5 or Shiit modi+magni stack ?

Any other questions or suggestions would be welcome...

I can only speak for the ALC1220 sound vs. dedicated sound card.

I have the Z270 Taichi, and the sound is very solid. While it doesn't truly compare to a dedicated sound card, I imagine for 90% of people it is "good enough". I listen to a lot of music with my computer, and I am satisfied with the quality. Now if Creative had a crazy sale on the AE-5, or I won one in a contest, I wouldn't hesitate to put one in because it is better than onboard (how much is a matter of personal opinion).

I used a dedicated sound card up until Windows 10. Back at the end of 2015, Creative was in no hurry to fix the driver issues every time Windows 10 had a major update. Every time my computer came out of sleep, I had to go into my device manager and disable the sound device, and then enable to get sound to work again. I got tired of having to do this, and took it to use onboard sound which I've never had a driver issue with. Now granted my sound card was older and I understand it had moved into legacy support, but it still worked and sounded great. Windows 10 updates have a propensity to leave some components not working (the latest update caused issues with my wifi adapters, and I've seen others with the same issue here).
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,619
2,188
126
i got 2 go to bed but i might get into this again later, if your amp repro system is better than your digital repro system, you probably have a flat digital and a excited amp. or, in other words, your digital is doing what it should, and your amp is doing what it should not - excite particular frequencies.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136
i got 2 go to bed but i might get into this again later, if your amp repro system is better than your digital repro system, you probably have a flat digital and a excited amp. or, in other words, your digital is doing what it should, and your amp is doing what it should not - excite particular frequencies.

You know there's an analog amp in both, right

By the way, the average head-fi user is absolutely useless, but here's someone who actually has some proper equipment: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/modi-mb-technical-measurements.817404/

TL;DR: The preamp of the Modi is very nearly perfectly flat. Like I said, minimal competency to get something like this right, but competency nonetheless. I don't have the same confidence in MB manufacturers to get their preamps flat out to 20 kHz. Whether it makes a difference to you or the OP is another matter.
 
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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,619
2,188
126
https://www.google.co.uk/search?sou....9.5.2095...0j46j0i131k1j0i46k1.0.5VE9nhEIDZA

pcik whichever reference you want. this is something that every amp and circuit designer needs to keep in mind when designing. in order for us to perceive a sound the same way at different loudness, you need to change the power curve based on amplitude and frequency.

broadly speaking, good ol' wood and metal amps tend to perform better over a range of different amplitudes. "digital" amps tend to .. you know, this is just something too complicated to explain in a forum. if you want to come to my house i'll cook some pork chops and i will explain the excessive amount of variables that go into reproducing sound.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136

Well, that came out of nowhere. We're talking about preamps here, which have exactly one job .. produce a flat frequency response with a low impedance output. There is a 0% chance any onboard audio is doing any EQ in its "power" amp at its output. (quotes on power because it's really only powerful enough to directly drive low input impedance headphones)

pcik whichever reference you want. this is something that every amp and circuit designer needs to keep in mind when designing. in order for us to perceive a sound the same way at different loudness, you need to change the power curve based on amplitude and frequency.

i got 2 go to bed but i might get into this again later, if your amp repro system is better than your digital repro system, you probably have a flat digital and a excited amp. or, in other words, your digital is doing what it should, and your amp is doing what it should not - excite particular frequencies.

Interesting, so which is it?

broadly speaking, good ol' wood and metal amps tend to perform better over a range of different amplitudes. "digital" amps tend to .. you know, this is just something too complicated to explain in a forum. if you want to come to my house i'll cook some pork chops and i will explain the excessive amount of variables that go into reproducing sound.

Try me. As a practicing EE, I might as well resign if I don't even understand audio amplification. I'd be interested to hear about this distinction between analog and "digital" too, I thought we were talking about the analog amplification stage after a DAC. (DAC chips themselves being pretty universally perfect devices in this day and age, whether its an ALCxxx or whatever Analog Devices or AKM chip the Schiit products use)
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,619
2,188
126
it's both .. except the mechanical amp does it "analog" and the digital amp likely does it in steps. they both cannot do a proper job.

and i don't like this "challenge me" way the thread is shaping itself because i'm sick of having to explain stuff i paid to learn to people who eitehr 1. do not understand it or 2. do understand it and i don't get paid.

if you go online at the berklee webstore you you find the Glen Ballou book on audio engineering most of my courses relied on. i think it's $100 or so.

it doesn't really go much into physioacoustics (perception of sound) so you'll have to do a bit of research on your own.

a bit.

enough to earn a professional diploma, in, say, acoustics.

i have no idea what EE means, i assume -E is for Engineer. and possibly E- is for Electronics. This should be a walk in the park for you.

1. there is a signal. lets assume this signal is flat.
2. there is an amp. let's assume this amp is flat.
3. there is a signal-receiver (our ears). this is not flat. it changes filter as the amplitude grows.

you want thus the flatness of (2) to remain constant when changing amplitude.

now, as a designer, you have two choices, or in-between. one, you keep the signal (1) flat. this sounds bad because of (3).
other choice, you alter (2) to take (3) into consideration.

Now, you do this by having components which reach to the change in voltage in a non-linear manner, i.e. not completely flat. As these are individual components, they are centered on ..

i really dont enjoy doing audio school for free. THEY ARE centered on a specific frequency. they would have a bell-shaped curve affecting nearby frequencies as well. This means that with analogue components you will never get a flat curve, more so a curve which follows a very specific shape as it changes in amplitude. Not even one that stays flat as it changes in amplitude. essentially you are trying to lift a string with one finger and expecting it to stay flat.

However, we are dumb animals and we like an amp that changes color as it changes volume. we think it has warmth, color, brilliance, and other bs words.

fletcher-munsen curves are also different between people.

digital amps .. have less trouble understanding how they should reproduce a signal. they are more likely to keep to the shape of (3) or (2) as decided by the designer, but as they do not do so by having materials heat up or resistances increase, which we humans like so much.

however, this depends all on how the digital system was designed. generally speaking, professional amp designers tend to use their ears more than digital amp designers, and even if their amps are not accurate, they sound better. Digital amps are the opposite, they are accurate but sound bad.

before i explain why, i would like you to consider how people still prefer valve amps. meanwhile, i'm off to lunch.
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
Guys,

The OP just asked about opinions on getting a sound card vs. an external DAC because his onboard sound isn't working.

While the information you are providing is interesting, the detailed explanation should go into an area like 'highly technical' if you want to go that deep into discussion and debate.
 
Reactions: corkyg

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
412
107
116
Thank you UsandThem , I actually greatly enjoyed reading this.

two more questions - does any of the above (built in 1200 codec, SB AE5, Shiit stack) change with only using headphones vs speakers is that irrelevant? and between optical and USB, any recommendations ?

I am leaning towards most expensive option (keep motherboard and stand $250 on modi +magni 3) due to
- warranty (tied of things to be warrantied for only 12 months)
- ability to reuse on later PC hardware if I chose to
- some degree of portability
- less drivers (which is what people complain about when thinking Creative Labs)
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136

Cool, but this is not an acoustics problem, it's a simple electrical engineering (EE) problem. Both options under consideration in this thread have the task of accepting an audio input and reproducing it with a flat frequency response. It has nothing to do with the fact that human ears perceive sound differently depending on how loud it is because any non-specialty PC audio setup like those under discussion here are designed around a flat frequency response with the option for the user to apply EQ curves with DSP (yes, digital filters can be designed to be the exact equivalent of analog filters ... provable and indisputable).

I don't like this imprecise language about "mechanical" amps, "digital" amps, etc. because all audio amplifiers are analog circuits, whether they're made with tubes, transistors, opamps, whatever, and mechanical/digital means nothing to me in this context. I get the feeling you're trying to discern between solid state and valve here, but they're both just analog circuits with the same ideal function, just that valves introduce distortion which luckily tends to correlate well with what the human ear often wants to hear. But, the OP will not be buying a tube amp. It's irrelevant. He can play with an EQ in DSP if he wants, and if he plays with the sliders enough at a particular volume and gets it right, the result is exactly the same.

Guys,

The OP just asked about opinions on getting a sound card vs. an external DAC because his onboard sound isn't working.

While the information you are providing is interesting, the detailed explanation should go into an area like 'highly technical' if you want to go that deep into discussion and debate.

Apologies, tried to keep it short.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,619
2,188
126
i'm glad that you are satisfied of your understanding and i no longer need to provide any input on this thread
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136
Thank you UsandThem , I actually greatly enjoyed reading this.

two more questions - does any of the above (built in 1200 codec, SB AE5, Shiit stack) change with only using headphones vs speakers is that irrelevant? and between optical and USB, any recommendations ?

I am leaning towards most expensive option (keep motherboard and stand $250 on modi +magni 3) due to
- warranty (tied of things to be warrantied for only 12 months)
- ability to reuse on later PC hardware if I chose to
- some degree of portability
- less drivers (which is what people complain about when thinking Creative Labs)

Powered or unpowered speakers? If they're unpowered/connect to an amp with speaker wire, your power amplifier piece will need to be a different class of product. I used the Sherwood RX-4109 for a while, which also has a headphone amp built in. Unfortunately, I found the headphone amp in that to be noisy, so would not recommend but that's the kind of thing you'll be looking at. If the speakers plug into the wall, that means they have a built in amplifier and the low powered headphone amplifiers under discussion here can drive them.

Optical won't be subject to jitter noise from USB but any properly designed DAC will isolate it anyway, so it shouldn't matter. Another cheaper, high quality option to look at is the FiiO e10k, which is a built in DAC+headphone amp. It does well in measurements but provides less power than the Magni line, which should be fine for anything but very high input impedance headphones (300+ ohm)
 

corkyg

Elite Member | Peripherals
Super Moderator
Mar 4, 2000
27,370
239
106
This discussion is not about peripherals - it is about internals and engineering, ergo I am moving it to General Hardware.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136
i'm glad that you are satisfied of your understanding and i no longer need to provide any input on this thread

I've got buddies who did audio engineering at Berklee too They know how to make some good recordings, but that's really not what this is about.
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,619
2,188
126
i know. i have already given my opinion. BUY A MOTHERBOARD WITH ALC1150.

somehow that was deemed not satisfactory as an answer.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136
Must be tough going through life seeing every dissenting opinion as an attack. I even half agreed with you in my last paragraph in post #6
 

simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
412
107
116
i know. i have already given my opinion. BUY A MOTHERBOARD WITH ALC1150.
somehow that was deemed not satisfactory as an answer.

Thank you! I already have a motherboard with ALC1200 which is not working. buying another motherboard with lesser built in codec at this point to replace everything vs buying a $150 sound card?
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
Thank you! I already have a motherboard with ALC1200 which is not working. buying another motherboard with lesser built in codec at this point to replace everything vs buying a $150 sound card?

No. They keep missing that point because of their ongoing debate.

Either return the motherboard for an exchange, or get a sound card (or DAC).
 

DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
13,619
2,188
126
Thank you! I already have a motherboard with ALC1200 which is not working. buying another motherboard with lesser built in codec at this point to replace everything vs buying a $150 sound card?
i wasn't aware that ALC1200 even existed. And i can't find mention of it anywhere on Realtek's website. As far as i can tell, the latest one is the ALC1150 and the ALC1200 only exists as a chip on Asus boards, primarily the P5Q. I suspect this is just a ALC1150 chip that Asus have decided to brand with their own product code because Asus are just so much cooler than anyone else.

Does your mobo still have warranty? Generally, when a mobo component fails, pretty much the whole mobo is gonna fall apart. And you are going to need a fully functioning motherboard. So ..
 
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