Spaces between sentences.

[onza]

I've been always doing 2, err i mean TWO spaces after the period. I was taught this since grade school. So confused right now.

 

[Ketchup]

I have been seeing this thread pop up since post 5. Every time I look at it, the poll is at (or close to) 50/50.

I would take that to mean "user discretion."

 

[WelshBloke]

I've been always doing 2, err i mean TWO spaces after the period. I was taught this since grade school. So confused right now.

Not in this forum you're not. :sneaky:

 

[Charlie98]

Double spacing is as necessary in today's world as cursive.

Also, I'm a proofreader by trade, and the very first thing I do when I start work on anything is do a find and replace of all double spaces into single spaces.

...SO!!! It was YOU!!!

That's an interesting comment about cursive, however. Just because people don't 'write' as much anymore doesn't negate the value of cursive writing. Having said that, I don't know the last time I wrote cursive... mine is largely illegible... probably 20-25 years.

Heeeyyyyy... I feel another ATOT poll thread/argument thread coming on...

 

[SearchMaster]

Sorry, i didn't read responses. My mom always told me two spaces after a period. I've always done that and have never had any complaints from professors. In order to lengthen papers and such, that could end up coming quite in handy as long as your prof. doesn't care. Just sayin'

I can't imagine that the extra space after each period would make any marked difference in the length of a paper. Sure, we've all played games with margins to fit the teacher's required length but the only way it would matter is to make a paragraph that is *almost* xx lines long into xx + 1 lines long, and that's not going to happen very often in a normal paper just by double-spacing the periods.

I voted two spaces because I'm in my 40s and that's how I was taught (on a typewriter of course), and it takes only a couple of milliseconds to add the second keystroke. However, I am not offended by a single space and think our language and its grammar are being abused very heavily in so many other ways.

 

[CZroe]

MLA, APA, etc. it's only one space. If you're writing a letter to Grandma, I'd do two spaces...

-My two cents

You write to grandma on a typewriter? It isn't simply excluded from APA/MLA, it doesn't exist in any standard or style guide outside of monospaced fonts. You aren't operating a printing press or using an old typewriter. Don't do it.

Always two (in the legal world). One spaced typing in legal memos/motions/etc. is high up on my pet peeves list.

Completely wrong. Your pet peeve should be people who do it at all when they aren't using monospaced fonts like a typewriter or ancient printing press. There is no other place where it is part of any style or standard DESPITE being incorrectly taught in schools all over. If monospaced readability is not a concern, don't do it.

 

[Charlie98]

Completely wrong. Your pet peeve should be people who do it at all when they aren't using monospaced fonts like a typewriter or ancient printing press. There is no other place where it is part of any style or standard DESPITE being incorrectly taught in schools all over. If monospaced readability is not a concern, don't do it.

Good heavens! I hear the Black Grammar Nazi Helicopters circling the house now...

 

[IronWing]

You write to grandma on a typewriter? It isn't simply excluded from APA/MLA, it doesn't exist in any standard or style guide outside of monospaced fonts. You aren't operating a printing press or using an old typewriter. Don't do it.


Completely wrong. Your pet peeve should be people who do it at all when they aren't using monospaced fonts like a typewriter or ancient printing press. There is no other place where it is part of any style or standard DESPITE being incorrectly taught in schools all over. If monospaced readability is not a concern, don't do it.

Just for you, I'm going to hyphenate all my re- and un- words.

 

[rh71]

I actually [subconciously] hit space 2 times in this post myself now that I'm looking at it.

If you ever read a large Word document, 2 is normal (yes, even if because it was taught that way in schools). Even people who usually compose technical documents use 2, despite what HTML displays.
As an example: "if you use 2 acronyms right beside each other like BYOB. GOOG that and you'll know what it means." It's harder to read than with 2 spaces among a large document.
Of course online pages and especially forum posts are typically short enough for us to not care about it. 2 spaces makes it somewhat easier to read if you have walls of text. I wouldn't use HTML as the determining factor of how it "should" be done. Look at how many revisions there have been and HTML5 is still not standardized despite having books written for it for years now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML

Regardless, readability and standards are 2 different things.

 

[Red Storm]

I don't really give a flying fuck about what is the "appropriate standard", to me double spacing looks better and is easier to read, especially for longer papers and that's the reason why I've always done it.

I'm also 24.

 

[CZroe]

Two is correct formal usage. This started changing about 15 years ago... There is an evolution to one (this is often justified with texting, etc...). You can generally assume that people who "know" that single space is correct are under 40 years old.

That would explain it. I was taught two-spaces when I learned to type, decades ago. Since then I've gradually had to try and stop doing it 'cos people (and word processors) keep insisting its one-space now (but I can't seem to give up the habit). I have wondered if it has anything to do with the type of font one is using? Is it two spaces for something like courier, but one for proportional fonts, maybe? Anyway, I'm sticking with two, too old to change now.

His statement is wrong and doesn't explain it. You wondered and wandered across the real explanation: Fonts.

Old printing presses and typewriters had fixed length fonts with the same space for each character. A number, letter, punctuation, or space all used the same horizontal width. Because the letters of a word were not condensed to remove white space within a word and the surrounding punctuation, it was difficult to distinguish where a sentence ends/begins when visually scanning the page. Of course, that's partially why sentence capitalization exists in normal writing, but it wasn't enough for dense and uniform mechanical print with visible space in every word. Strategically adding an extra space helped with this.

There are some monospaced computer fonts but they are hideous, a waste of space, and for specific purposes only. You can use extra spaces if you strangely chose to use a monospaced font but leave them alone otherwise.

If you ever read a large Word document, 2 is normal. Even people who usually compose technical documents use 2, despite what HTML displays. I actually [subconciously] hit space 2 times in this post myself now that I'm looking at it.

Visually, online pages and especially forum posts are typically short enough for us to care about it. 2 spaces makes it somewhat easier to read if you have walls of text. I wouldn't use HTML as the determining factor of how it "should" be done. Look at how many revisions there have been and HTML5 is still not standardized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTML

My Technical Writing course said nothing about using it in technical documents.

HTML isn't the defining factor. It is simply enforcing what has already been decided before the dawn of personal computers: Two spaces is only for monospaced type.

 

[Red Storm]

His statement is wrong and doesn't explain it. You wondered and wandered across the real explanation: Fonts. Old printing presses and typewriters had fixed length fonts with the same space for each character. A number, letter, punctuation, or space all used the same horizontal width. Because the letters of a word were not condensed to remove white space within a word and the surrounding punctuation, it was difficult to distinguish where a sentence ends/begins when visually scanning the page. Of course, that's partially why sentence capitalization exists in normal writing, but it wasn't enough for dense and uniform mechanical print with visible space in every word. Strategically adding an extra space helped with this. There are some monospaced computer fonts but they are hideous, a waste of space, and for specific purposes only. You can use extra spaces if you strangely chose to use a monospaced font but leave them alone otherwise.

Thing is it still applies to this day (making text more readable). For example, your multi-line, single paragraph post would be easier on the eyes with double spaces.

 

[rh71]

My Technical Writing course said nothing about using it in technical documents.

Didn't you just get through telling us how we've all been taught wrong in schools? So if we've been taught 2 spaces in schools and your technical writing course didn't tell you any different...

By the way, did they go through how many spaces after a comma?

 

[CZroe]

I posted this here back in 2011:
http://www.slate.com/id/2281146/

Can I let you in on a secret? Typing two spaces after a period is totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong.
...
What galls me about two-spacers isn't just their numbers. It's their certainty that they're right. Over Thanksgiving dinner last year, I asked people what they considered to be the "correct" number of spaces between sentences. The diners included doctors, computer programmers, and other highly accomplished professionals. Everyone—everyone!—said it was proper to use two spaces. Some people admitted to slipping sometimes and using a single space—but when writing something formal, they were always careful to use two. Others explained they mostly used a single space but felt guilty for violating the two-space "rule." Still others said they used two spaces all the time, and they were thrilled to be so proper. When I pointed out that they were doing it wrong—that, in fact, the correct way to end a sentence is with a period followed by a single, proud, beautiful space—the table balked. "Who says two spaces is wrong?" they wanted to know.

Reminds me of a poll I saw on Anandtech once where most people incorrectly thought that two spaces was correct/standard on modern equipment.

Didn't you just get through telling us how we've all been taught wrong in schools? So if we've been taught 2 spaces in schools and your technical writing course didn't tell you any different...

By the way, did they go through how many spaces after a comma?

Are you telling me you create Word documents including resume cover letters with single spaces after periods?

Did you fail at reading or comprehending? I said that it did not mention using two spaces. It is clearly not a technical writing requirement. It is not a requirement ANYWHERE and anyone who was taught that it was a requirement was taught wrong. It is a convention that is only applicable to monospaced type.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Didn't you just get through telling us how we've all been taught wrong in schools? So if we've been taught 2 spaces in schools and your technical writing course didn't tell you any different...

By the way, did they go through how many spaces after a comma?

Are you telling me you create Word documents including resume cover letters with single spaces after periods?

I took technical writing courses as well (majored in it) and they told us multiple times that single spacing was correct.

You use a single space after a comma as well.

And I can't speak for him, but yes, I always use single spaces in all the documents I create. Resumes and cover letters, as well as everything I edit at work. Everything has a single space after a period, and if it doesn't come to me that way, I change it with a quick find and replace.

EDIT:

Did you fail at reading or comprehending? I said that it did not mention using two spaces. It is clearly not a technical writing requirement. It is not a requirement ANYWHERE and anyone who was taught that it was a requirement was taught wrong. It is a convention that is only applicable to monospaced type.

Yeah, that's a better way of putting it. Most grammar "rules" are really guidelines. The most important thing is not to do things one way or another, but to always do it the same way every time within the same document.

A good example is the serial comma (aka the Oxford comma). When you have a list of three or more items separated by commas, you may choose to use a comma after the second to last item or not. Either way is correct, and the important thing is to be consistent in your usage. Personally I think using it improves clarity since there is a clear separation between each item in the list, but it's not "wrong" to not use it.

An example of how the serial comma improves clarity:
"At the restaurant, we ordered a burger, fish and chips, and beer" vs. "At the restaurant, we ordered a burger, fish and chips and beer."

 

[rh71]

Did you fail at reading or comprehending? I said that it did not mention using two spaces. It is clearly not a technical writing requirement. It is not a requirement ANYWHERE and anyone who was taught that it was a requirement was taught wrong. It is a convention that is only applicable to monospaced type.

Always quick to put others down to make yourself feel superior. Never fails with you. You stated it was not mentioned and so it's inferred it is not a requirement for 2 spaces. So what happens to the people in your class who only know the 2 space rule from school? They'd be churnning out documents with 2 spaces so what makes your technical document more right than theirs if your technical writing class is the end-all, be-all AND DIDN'T EVEN CORRECT THE REST OF "US"?

 

[CZroe]

You stated it was not mentioned and so it's inferred it is not a requirement for 2 spaces. So what happens to the people in your class who only know the 2 space rule from school? They'd be churnning out documents with 2 spaces so what makes your technical document more right than theirs if your technical writing class is the end-all, be-all?

The fact that two spaces is "totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong" anywhere outside of monospaced fonts. Notice that there is no exemption for technical documents. I know this because I took a Technical Writing course.

Do you understand now?

As far as it being taught incorrectly:

Besides, the argument in favor of two spaces isn't any less arbitrary. Samantha Jacobs, a reading and journalism teacher at Norwood High School in Norwood, Col., told me that she requires her students to use two spaces after a period instead of one, even though she acknowledges that style manuals no longer favor that approach. Why? Because that's what she's used to. "Primarily, I base the spacing on the way I learned," she wrote me in an e-mail glutted with extra spaces.

Several other teachers gave me the same explanation for pushing two spaces on their students. But if you think about, that's a pretty backward approach: The only reason today's teachers learned to use two spaces is because their teachers were in the grip of old-school technology. We would never accept teachers pushing other outmoded ideas on kids because that's what was popular back when they were in school. The same should go for typing. So, kids, if your teachers force you to use two spaces, send them a link to this article. Use this as your subject line: "If you type two spaces after a period, you're doing it wrong."

 

[IronWing]

Hmmm, maybe a FireFox extension to parse html to stop single spacing sentence endings is in order.

 

[rh71]

A good example is the serial comma (aka the Oxford comma). When you have a list of three or more items separated by commas, you may choose to use a comma after the second to last item or not. Either way is correct, and the important thing is to be consistent in your usage. Personally I think using it improves clarity since there is a clear separation between each item in the list, but it's not "wrong" to not use it.

I also learned this in school. Also happen to be a COM major. My question is if something like that is NOT WRONG, why is using 2 spaces wrong? I can understand not required, but completely wrong? Just because it isn't needed does not make sense - and the oxford comma shows that.

 

[IronWing]

I also learned this in school. My question is if something like that is NOT WRONG, why is using 2 spaces wrong?

Each person has an individual moral code. Apparantly, CZroe's moral code covers sentence spacing.

 

[CZroe]

Always quick to put others down to make yourself feel superior.

Addressing your edit: Nope. Always quick to point out when people incorrectly correct the correct with incorrect information, especially when the majority are incorrect. *whew*

I also learned this in school. Also happen to be a COM major. My question is if something like that is NOT WRONG, why is using 2 spaces wrong? I can understand not required, but completely wrong? Just because it isn't needed does not make sense - and the oxford comma shows that.

An English professor once deducted points from my work for not using that comma and pointed to the comma usage guidelines where it says it is not acceptable to leave it out in formal works (note: not talking about style guides).

 

[AstroManLuca]

I also learned this in school. Also happen to be a COM major. My question is if something like that is NOT WRONG, why is using 2 spaces wrong? I can understand not required, but completely wrong? Just because it isn't needed does not make sense - and the oxford comma shows that.

I guess using two spaces when you're not on a typewriter is sort of like underlining book titles (rather than using italics) when you're not on a typewriter.

Underlining the title of a book isn't "wrong," but if you're on a computer, you should put it in italics instead because it looks better. The only reason underlining was used was because it was easier to reproduce when printing, typing on a typewriter, or writing by hand.

 

[rh71]

The fact that two spaces is "totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong" anywhere outside of monospaced fonts. Notice that there is no exemption for technical documents. I know this because I took a Technical Writing course.

Do you understand now?

As far as it being taught incorrectly:

So the explanation is that it's an old-school method based from old school typing. So now it is "totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong". No, I don't understand. Not a requirement and completely wrong are 2 different things. It seems like someone just got up one day and made a hardened rule just because it is no longer used. What makes them the authority to call it completely wrong, seriously?

And you should just drop the "technical writing" course thing from your argument. Clearly they did not state it was wrong to you and that's your whole purpose here.

 

[CZroe]

So the explanation is that it's an old-school method based from old school typing. So now it is "totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong". No, I don't understand. Not a requirement and completely wrong are 2 different things. It seems like someone just got up one day and made a hardened rule just because it is no longer used. What makes them the authority to call it completely wrong, seriously?

And you should just drop the "technical writing" course thing from your argument. Clearly they did not state it was wrong to you and that's your whole purpose here.

Did you skim the part about all the rules being arbitrary and decided on and that typographers, the very ones who decide on this issue, unanimously say that it's wrong?

 

[IronWing]

Did you skim the part about all the rules being arbitrary and decided on and that typographers, the very ones who decide on this issue, unanimously say that it's wrong?

I don't recall ceding control of the language to typographers.