SpaceX explosion on pad

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Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
18,828
184
106
Musk: I don't always test my rockets in production, but when I do, I do it with client payloads on board.

And I was going to chime in saying that at least it didn't go up with the cargo...

Sounds like we should all just rip off the Russian Soyuz -- isn't that what the Chinese did and look how fast their space program "developed."
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,432
12,605
126
www.anyf.ca
9/1 Never Forget.

Sucks for SpaceX though. Technical people like us realize that shit happens, but most people don't and will lose confidence in them. Originally they were saying it was just the 1st stage but looks like it was the whole rocket and the payload. I guess internet.org is going to have to wait, because they have to make a new satellite.

Aparantly this was not covered by insurance either. Something about it not being an actual launch. I guess the insurance covers if something happens during launch but not the steps leading to it.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
68,432
12,605
126
www.anyf.ca
Watching the video looks like some sort of implosion on the upper stage at one of the eblicals attachment points right before the fireball engulfs the ship.

Hopefully they have some super slow mo of the explosion.

Yeah I thought the explosion originated on the ground but video definitely makes it look like it originated above. But maybe the initial fuel (like hydrogen or something) burned transparently and lit up a pipe leading to the upper part of the stage. Just a wild guess though. Could also easily have happened between camera frames.
 
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Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,661
1,915
136
9/1 Never Forget.

Sucks for SpaceX though. Technical people like us realize that shit happens, but most people don't and will lose confidence in them. Originally they were saying it was just the 1st stage but looks like it was the whole rocket and the payload. I guess internet.org is going to have to wait, because they have to make a new satellite.

Aparantly this was not covered by insurance either. Something about it not being an actual launch. I guess the insurance covers if something happens during launch but not the steps leading to it.

It is covered by insurance, just not launch insurance since their was no intent to launch. Satellites have several different types of insurance on them and one of them covers the time period in transit and up to the actual launch time.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,661
1,915
136
that's their only cape canaveral launch pad right? damage is probably much worse than orbital's antares explosion just after launch

It is hard to tell at this time.

However with Orbital, their was a argument about who would pay to fix the damage since the state actually owned the pad and launch facilities not Orbital. The state wound up paying to fix the pad not Orbital. With LC40 their is no question of who owns the pad and facilities, SpaceX.

Orbital also had solid fuel, that was all those burning embers that looked like fireworks during the explosion. It is more difficult to clean-up a mess from solid fuel because it all hazardous waste. The F9 just uses RP1 and LOX which should make the clean-up easier.
 

freeskier93

Senior member
Apr 17, 2015
487
19
81
I'd really like to know how willing companies are to have SpaceX do this test, I feel like this is something SpaceX could be really pressuring companies to do to save launch time.

I know shit happens, but given I'm a test engineer for a major US satellite I think I might be a bit biased and emotional. Seeing the satellite falling down was sickening and I hate that this happened during a test and I don't like that SpaceX does this test in the first place.

It is hard to tell at this time.

However with Orbital, their was a argument about who would pay to fix the damage since the state actually owned the pad and launch facilities not Orbital. The state wound up paying to fix the pad not Orbital. With LC40 their is no question of who owns the pad and facilities, SpaceX.

Orbital also had solid fuel, that was all those burning embers that looked like fireworks during the explosion. It is more difficult to clean-up a mess from solid fuel because it all hazardous waste. The F9 just uses RP1 and LOX which should make the clean-up easier.

Cleanup will be a huge issue because of the hypergolic propellant on the satellite. Damage to the pad looks very expensive too.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
that's their only cape canaveral launch pad right? damage is probably much worse than orbital's antares explosion just after launch

Yep, that's their only operating Cape Canaveral site. However, SpaceX is quite resourceful and I doubt they will let a pad issue keep them from launching. I bet either repairs will be done or they'll have LC39A up and running before the vehicle is returned to flight.

Aparantly this was not covered by insurance either. Something about it not being an actual launch. I guess the insurance covers if something happens during launch but not the steps leading to it.

It was covered. People are misinterpreting a tweet that said it wasn't covered under launch insurance, which is true. It was still covered by its maritime cargo policy all the way until actual booster ignition for launch, which was not today.

Yeah I thought the explosion originated on the ground but video definitely makes it look like it originated above. But maybe the initial fuel (like hydrogen or something) burned transparently and lit up a pipe leading to the upper part of the stage. Just a wild guess though. Could also easily have happened between camera frames.

They're using RP-1 (essentially, kerosene). You'd see it burning. This was most likely (in my educated guess of an opinion) a leaky connection at the umbilical that allowed a spark to ignite the small amount of fuel and oxidizer.

I'd really like to know how willing companies are to have SpaceX do this test, I feel like this is something SpaceX could be really pressuring companies to do to save launch time.

I know shit happens, but given I'm a test engineer for a major US satellite I think I might be a bit biased and emotional. Seeing the satellite falling down was sickening and I hate that this happened during a test and I don't like that SpaceX does this test in the first place.

Word from the customers in the past is that they prefer it to be on there. They're the ones who pushed SpaceX to alter policy and integrate prior to the static fire. They like that it gives their satellite a good shaking and they get to go through the motions of testing their satellite under launch conditions without it actually scrubbing a launch if something isn't right.

In general, the static fire testing has shown faults with both launch vehicle and payload in the past, so it has proven valuable. Plus, since this looks to be an issue with GSE or its connection to the vehicle, it could've happened on launch day just as easily. Hopefully a lot is learned from this, as it's going to cost them a lot of hard work to rebuild and improve. I'm just concerned that this will result in a lengthy grounding of the Falcon when it may not have even been at fault.
 
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Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,418
1,599
126
I wonder if their insurance premiums are going to increase
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
Word from the customers in the past is that they prefer it to be on there. They're the ones who pushed SpaceX to alter policy and integrate prior to the static fire. They like that it gives their satellite a good shaking and they get to go through the motions of testing their satellite under launch conditions without it actually scrubbing a launch if something isn't right.

Most people building satellites have tested them on a vibe stand extensivly for that purpose way before they would be installed on a launch vehicle.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
That is going to hurt the reputation a bit, at any rate.

Luckily, customers who purchase rocket launches understand things happen. This is much better than if it had happened in flight. There are way more cameras on it and it didn't rain debris down on anybody but themselves. They'll come to a conclusion and improvement the customers and insurance companies are happy with. The Falcon 9 is a very immature launcher compared to the competition, and issues like this are expected. That's why they have insurance.

I think the biggest reputation hit will be in the eyes of NASA. The Falcon 9 is already human rated, and the Dragon 2 has passed it's ground abort test. However, this explosion was a worst case scenario. We don't know how long they knew something was going south before the explosion, if they knew at all. That would mean the Dragon 2 would have been relying on its automated abort system, and this puts scrutiny on its effectiveness. NASA was already nervous about propellant loading with crew members on board, and this won't be helping. Rightly so; no one wants someone hurt.

Quick Edit: Even if SpaceX isn't financially responsible, they have a precedent of helping out a customer if something within their power has caused a delay. Granted, this is huge and only other payload loss they've had of this nature was CRS-7 about with there was nothing they could help with (under such a large contract). With Spacecom, they could offer the first flight available when the new satellite is ready and they can reduce the chances of recovering the booster in order to give the satellite a faster completion to orbital insertion. They did this with SES-9 I believe.
 
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Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
I wonder if their insurance premiums are going to increase

Even the in flight failure last year didn't affect them. The insurance companies looked at their data, their fix, and were satisfied.

Most people building satellites have tested them on a vibe stand extensivly for that purpose way before they would be installed on a launch vehicle.

You can test all day, but until your package is atop a tower of power, you don't know for sure. Feedback from the customers is that this is what they want. They also get to test the system integration under flight conditions as well.
 

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
SES doesn't seem shaken, but they've always seemed like SpaceX's best friends (I think they can't wait to see the drop in launch prices over the next decade as SpaceX really gets into gear; they've already affected things as it is). SES had already hinted very loudly at desiring to be the first reused booster flight:

https://twitter.com/Pat_DefDaily/status/771416816400928768

Edit: And Elon is doubling down that Dragon 2 would've been fine and able to save the crew.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/771479910778966016

Edit 2: And a warning to take speculation (like mine further up this page) with a huge grain of salt.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/771423043038146560
 
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MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
You can test all day, but until your package is atop a tower of power, you don't know for sure. Feedback from the customers is that this is what they want. They also get to test the system integration under flight conditions as well.

I have plenty of things I have assisted in manufacturing in orbit and a few other places, an explanation is not really necessary

Test Cells used to be one of my biggest things at work.

 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,446
126
Where's the profit in that?

It was a Facebook satellite. Their idea of "Free Internet" is really more like "Free Facebook and a handful of other sites Facebook approves of".

Facebook tried something similar called "Free Basics" in India, and their government kicked it out of the country on anti-competitive grounds.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
5,661
1,915
136
I'd really like to know how willing companies are to have SpaceX do this test, I feel like this is something SpaceX could be really pressuring companies to do to save launch time.

I know shit happens, but given I'm a test engineer for a major US satellite I think I might be a bit biased and emotional. Seeing the satellite falling down was sickening and I hate that this happened during a test and I don't like that SpaceX does this test in the first place.



Cleanup will be a huge issue because of the hypergolic propellant on the satellite. Damage to the pad looks very expensive too.

SpaceX doesn't do a static fire with the payload attach unless they have the permission of the customer. Reference the static fire for the JCSAT-16 static fire on 8-10, what do you not see attached? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVq-vd1QMTM

Their is considerably less hypergolic propellant on the satellite than solid fuel on the 2nd stage of the Antares.

How do you know damage to the pad looks very expensive? Hopefully in the next couple of days we will see pictures of the pad and get a better feel for the damage.
 
Reactions: Sabrewings

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
I have plenty of things I have assisted in manufacturing in orbit and a few other places, an explanation is not really necessary

Test Cells used to be one of my biggest things at work.


I understand. Not demeaning your experience in anyway, just giving customers' reasons for wanting the integration before static fire. They see testing benefits and it shaves time off the launch schedule. Had been win/win until today.
 
Reactions: MongGrel

Sabrewings

Golden Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,942
35
51
Wow, check this out. Neat comparison. I didn't really doubt Dragon 2's performance, but I would doubt their automatic initiation system. I suppose a simple system of a wire loop running top to bottom and if it breaks continuity for whatever reason send it on its way.

https://coub.com/view/ek0w6
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,131
30,082
146
It was a Facebook satellite. Their idea of "Free Internet" is really more like "Free Facebook and a handful of other sites Facebook approves of".

Facebook tried something similar called "Free Basics" in India, and their government kicked it out of the country on anti-competitive grounds.

well, I didn't know it was that bad....now I only dislike Elon's rocket going boom.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Looks like about 10+ years since I last checked in here.
Watching the video, it's just after the upper stage begins to vent GOX (Gaseous Oxygen) while being filled with LOX (Liquid Oxygen) that it pops. Since it's a Kero-Lox regenerator system, it could have been a leak at the umbilical that allowed contact of the Oxygen with RP-1 propellant fuel -which could have spontaneously combined to ignite, or even the presence of trace residue lubricants, which also could have reacted that way.
There are many reasons that lubricants are banned for use in oxygen rich systems, even in cabin crew masks for commercial pilots as well as military aircraft.
 
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