Speculating about God

[JEDIYoda]

It isn't "playing word games." It is simply being specific. Not all theists are gnostic theists. There do exist agnostic theists, and you have made an error in fact to claim otherwise.

What is specific to one is a word game to somebody else....
What is a word game to one is being specific to another...

Just interchange the words..walla a word game...

 

[JEDIYoda]

What would you know about it?

just wow--a one line zinger!!!

 

[moonbogg]

So what in the hell does it mean if, for like less than 5 minutes, I am confident that reality isn't a mistake or arbitrary, and then I bounce back to my agnostic position of having no idea? A person is supposed to have a position, but I seem to have at least two and I flip flop between them.

 

[Retro Rob]

So what in the hell does it mean if, for like less than 5 minutes, I am confident that reality isn't a mistake or arbitrary, and then I bounce back to my agnostic position of having no idea? A person is supposed to have a position, but I seem to have at least two and I flip flop between them.

That means you're probably more reasonable than most, and willing to change your mind.

However, it could also betray a lack of conviction in your own beliefs, and that makes you appear to be either weak-minded or uncertain, and people tend to lack trust in what you say as a result.

 

[Savatar]

So what in the hell does it mean if, for like less than 5 minutes, I am confident that reality isn't a mistake or arbitrary, and then I bounce back to my agnostic position of having no idea? A person is supposed to have a position, but I seem to have at least two and I flip flop between them.

A person does not need to have a position on anything and everything, though. A fool tends to think himself wise, but a wise man tends to admit that he knows nothing. Some awesome quotes from Einstein:

‘The more I learn, the more I realize I don’t know.’
‘Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.’
‘We know nothing at all. All our knowledge is but the knowledge of schoolchildren. The real nature of things we shall never know.’
— Albert Einstein

Whether the world or universe was a product of chance or design, or whether God exists or not is something that we, unfortunately, may never be able to be demonstrated with any degree of certainty through science or philosophy. But we should definitely keep looking.

One natural place to look is the historical origin and role of gods and God. Focusing on what I am somewhat familiar with... the earliest civilizations which had ideas of deities were arguably Babylonian/Assyrian. Those deities translate to later Egyptian equivalents very well, just with different names, and the roles of the Egyptian deities evolved over the long reign of the empire (and were sometimes different in different geographic regions). One surprising fact is that many elements of Babylonian and Egyptian deities have parallels in Judaism itself. Perhaps this is not surprising considering Moses, who is purported to have penned the first five books of the Torah (referred to as the Pentateuch), was raised in Egypt. Some scholars credit him with introducing monotheism, integrating and reconciling the many deities into one religion. However, if we look closer into Babylonian and Egyptian stories, the deities may be thought of as representations of natural forces or concepts. This is akin to personification or anthropomorphism - though I think it is a bit more involved. Therefore, they may never have been intended to be thought of as many gods to begin with, and perhaps evolved into that over time. So what was it all about?

At its core, it may be thought that religion has not so much been 'about' gods or God, but the human condition itself. Sometimes this is through metaphor or allegory, and other times more directly. The underlying meaning has too often been completely lost in place of tired traditions and ritual. To me, this is one of the shifts in perspective that is essential to better understanding religions in general. To give one example, consider this passage [relevant considering the context of what is being discussed]:

‘But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.’
— Hebrews 11:6

This quote sounds like it's talking about believing in God, and it is on the surface -- but it's deeper than that. Why is it saying people should have faith in God here? It is to please God. And what does it mean to please God? It may be summed up to say that sometimes human beings are in positions where choices which are morally indecent, that we know are bad, sometimes seem to be the right thing to do at the time. Without believing in God - a perfect judge - we may often fail to do the right thing. It's a philosophical statement about morality which compels people to focus on 'God' in order to do good, instead of on our own selves. In many ways, then, God in the most perfect sense cannot be thought of as a tangible being or thing. However, one attribute of God is almost universally accepted to be present in the conscience, in our innate ability to grow into a knowledge of good and evil. This is what it means to be 'as God'. The mystery of the mysteries, then, is in God incarnate as the 'Son of God', Jesus Christ - the messiah and redeemer of mankind.

I hope this all made some kind of sense, though it was written in some haste.

 

[moonbogg]

I believe in "god" today. Tomorrow? Maybe not, who knows. For now, I think its all just a little too much to be arbitrary. My own experience, all by itself, is more than enough for me to call BS on the materialist, everything is arbitrary world view.
I could easily be a full time atheist/materialist if I had continued to ignore one minor detail. That detail is experience. That seems to be the key to it all for me. Without it, nothing matters. With it, the possibilities are endless.
Instead of looking outward at objective science, have you ever tried looking inward? I know it sounds lame and spiritual, but that's where I'm at. I look at the universe and the whole of creation as best I can, and I view my own experience with all its subjectivities as an object or event that exists in the universe, because that's exactly what it is. This "object" is so deep and so connected to other objects like it, that it appears to be doing something interesting that isn't arbitrary. Experience appears to be the purpose, and perhaps the cause of everything.

 

[sandorski]

I believe in "god" today. Tomorrow? Maybe not, who knows. For now, I think its all just a little too much to be arbitrary. My own experience, all by itself, is more than enough for me to call BS on the materialist, everything is arbitrary world view.
I could easily be a full time atheist/materialist if I had continued to ignore one minor detail. That detail is experience. That seems to be the key to it all for me. Without it, nothing matters. With it, the possibilities are endless.
Instead of looking outward at objective science, have you ever tried looking inward? I know it sounds lame and spiritual, but that's where I'm at. I look at the universe and the whole of creation as best I can, and I view my own experience with all its subjectivities as an object or event that exists in the universe, because that's exactly what it is. This "object" is so deep and so connected to other objects like it, that it appears to be doing something interesting that isn't arbitrary. Experience appears to be the purpose, and perhaps the cause of everything.

What does it even mean to "look inward" or "experience"?

Seems to me you are talking about Emotions, am I wrong?

 

[moonbogg]

What does it even mean to "look inward" or "experience"?

Seems to me you are talking about Emotions, am I wrong?

No, I am talking about taking the whole of your experience at face value. I am talking about consciousness and subjective experience. That bundle of atoms sitting in your chair is far greater than the sum of its parts.
When I say look inward, I know how it sounds, trust me. But here's what I mean. If I am looking at a majestic mountain range with snow capped peaks, and thinking about what it would be like to hike through the pine trees and how nice that would be, and then I invite a friend to actually go do it and we share that experience together, I find that amazing that such a thing is possible.
Its hard to talk about this and to convey why its significant to me. Its taken for granted. This is like asking a fish to explain why they appreciate water, and to study water, and why they think the existence of water means that there must be land to contain it in its current form etc.

 

[sandorski]

No, I am talking about taking the whole of your experience at face value. I am talking about consciousness and subjective experience. That bundle of atoms sitting in your chair is far greater than the sum of its parts.
When I say look inward, I know how it sounds, trust me. But here's what I mean. If I am looking at a majestic mountain range with snow capped peaks, and thinking about what it would be like to hike through the pine trees and how nice that would be, and then I invite a friend to actually go do it and we share that experience together, I find that amazing that such a thing is possible.
Its hard to talk about this and to convey why its significant to me. Its taken for granted. This is like asking a fish to explain why they appreciate water, and to study water, and why they think the existence of water means that there must be land to contain it in its current form etc.

What you are describing is the Awe, Wonder, etc. AKA, the Emotional.

 

[moonbogg]

What you are describing is the Awe, Wonder, etc. AKA, the Emotional.

No, no. Let me try again. The awe and wonder is a byproduct of experience. Its there, and its important to me, but its not why I believe in "god" today. Without experience, there would be no potential for awe and wonder. Experience is the reason I believe in god today. The fact that matter can become aware, for any reason, and assign purpose to itself it is enough for me. Matter becoming aware is the reason I believe at the moment. From that point, everything else follows, including the awe and wonder etc.
If I was suffering, I would not change my position, because I have suffered. Realizing that with experience, the potential for bliss and awe and wonder is also enough for me to believe, even if I don't get to experience those good things myself.

EDIT: In a way you are correct though. It is the richness of my experience that has me believe in addition to what I said just above. It is so good and deep and meaningful, that it cannot be arbitrary. Even if the cause for consciousness is understood, even if there is no basis for it that is spiritual or non physical, the position stays the same. Experience exists, that's a fact. Experience is too amazing to be arbitrary and must be a fundamental part of the system, or purposely built into the system, that's my faith position.

Also, I realize the potential for experience. The great heights that it can reach blow my mind, and no one has experienced those heights yet. We are just starting out and we have nothing but time to evolve and develop. Do you have any idea what unspeakable beauty and meaning is possible? My faith position is that those things are not arbitrary. They are either fundamental, intentional or both.

 

[sandorski]

No, no. Let me try again. The awe and wonder is a byproduct of experience. Its there, and its important to me, but its not why I believe in "god" today. Without experience, there would be no potential for awe and wonder. Experience is the reason I believe in god today. The fact that matter can become aware, for any reason, and assign purpose to itself it is enough for me. Matter becoming aware is the reason I believe at the moment. From that point, everything else follows, including the awe and wonder etc.
If I was suffering, I would not change my position, because I have suffered. Realizing that with experience, the potential for bliss and awe and wonder is also enough for me to believe, even if I don't get to experience those good things myself.

EDIT: In a way you are correct though. It is the richness of my experience that has me believe in addition to what I said just above. It is so good and deep and meaningful, that it cannot be arbitrary. Even if the cause for consciousness is understood, even if there is no basis for it that is spiritual or non physical, the position stays the same. Experience exists, that's a fact. Experience is too amazing to be arbitrary and must be a fundamental part of the system, or purposely built into the system, that's my faith position.

Also, I realize the potential for experience. The great heights that it can reach blow my mind, and no one has experienced those heights yet. We are just starting out and we have nothing but time to evolve and develop. Do you have any idea what unspeakable beauty and meaning is possible? My faith position is that those things are not arbitrary. They are either fundamental, intentional or both.

Sounds like you are in awe of your capacity to be self aware.

 

[moonbogg]

Sounds like you are in awe of your capacity to be self aware.

That sounds right. I could go with that. You know what's strange though? I see what you are getting at, and it wasn't long ago that I was in the same boat. Anything not based on empirical evidence is trash, and that's true, but only when you are trying to prove something or make a truth claim. I know better and I claim that I stumbled upon a faith position. Its a stubborn one that I cannot shake. I never imagined that I would be in a position like this. I never imagined that something as simple as smelling the roses would have led me there.

 

[Scarpozzi]

All I know is they did studies.

Those who believe in A religion, tend to live longer lives. I know that doesn't count the ones who die fighting for their religion and I don't know if that means the people are necessarily happier, but same as those who are married....studies show they are allowed slightly more peace of mind being able to rely on a higher power to reduce the stress that life and age accumulates on all of us.

Believing in God is less important to me as it is to present my kids with a moral foundation to help guide them to seek out others with a similar moral compass. I just want them to be around people who are well rounded and well grounded and avoid the other extremes.

 

[moonbogg]

All I know is they did studies.

Those who believe in A religion, tend to live longer lives. I know that doesn't count the ones who die fighting for their religion and I don't know if that means the people are necessarily happier, but same as those who are married....studies show they are allowed slightly more peace of mind being able to rely on a higher power to reduce the stress that life and age accumulates on all of us.

Believing in God is less important to me as it is to present my kids with a moral foundation to help guide them to seek out others with a similar moral compass. I just want them to be around people who are well rounded and well grounded and avoid the other extremes.

Well then I will die stressed out and young, because the farthest I can go is to say that experience isn't arbitrary. Even that is a faith position. I firmly believe that if I were to pray to something, it might as well be a rock floating in space because that's all that would be listening. I am convinced that a personal god does not exist. Many hoops would have to be cleared to go there for me.

EDIT: There may be benefits to this position I have. Even if I suffer and die, I can know that future generations and even many people right now are having great experiences. If I am nothing but a thing or an event, then the things and events that go on after me are just as good if not better then me. Your experience is just as legitimate, just as significant, and just as primary as my own. So when I am gone, the same light keeps shining in you. There is comfort in that, but an atheist may think that way as well.

 

[Retro Rob]

All I know is they did studies.

Those who believe in A religion, tend to live longer lives. I know that doesn't count the ones who die fighting for their religion and I don't know if that means the people are necessarily happier, but same as those who are married....studies show they are allowed slightly more peace of mind being able to rely on a higher power to reduce the stress that life and age accumulates on all of us.

Believing in God is less important to me as it is to present my kids with a moral foundation to help guide them to seek out others with a similar moral compass. I just want them to be around people who are well rounded and well grounded and avoid the other extremes.

Happiness is tied to ones outlook -- not religion, or situation. The reason why a study would show religious people as being happier is simply because they are looking foward to the things promised by their religious beliefs, and having the avenue of prayer is a plus to reduce stress when you believe God is listening to you, so I agree with that point.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Happiness is tied to ones outlook -- not religion, or situation. The reason why a study would show religious people as being happier is simply because they are looking foward to the things promised by their religious beliefs, and having the avenue of prayer is a plus to reduce stress when you believe God is listening to you, so I agree with that point.

That's all I was saying... I brought the marriage study in for the same reason...when you confide in a partner (especially when they can't leave you easily!), you are basically sharing your stressors in life and have a bit of a safety net.

I'm glad I had kids. It's not a guarantee, but I like the selfish feeling that they'll be around for me when I get older.

Family is a great thing and even religious family (church congregation) can fill in blanks in your life...hell, so could a chess club or harley davidson club...but Church meets every week 3+ times in many of them. I think it really helps those who don't have much else to look forward to. Personally, I only have 2 days in my weekend and I could easily fill both of them up with work around the house these days.

 

[moonbogg]

And then there is evolution. I know it is said that evolution isn't headed anywhere and that its just a blind, natural process with no regard for anything. My mind tells me that's true, but my experience calls BS.
Things have gone from the simple to the complex, and with that comes all of the richness of life. It doesn't seem arbitrary. Sorry, but it just doesn't. For now, I'm going with my gut on this stuff. I think life is headed somewhere interesting, and at the later stages, if one could see them now, they would be so blown away by what they saw that very few of us would be able to shrug it off as being arbitrary.

 

[norseamd]

And then there is evolution. I know it is said that evolution isn't headed anywhere and that its just a blind, natural process with no regard for anything. My mind tells me that's true, but my experience calls BS.

Not true.

I was going to post this in some huge discussion on this topic we had a while ago but I forgot about it. I might see if I can find it again since it was around the same time this article was put up on Extreme Tech.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...ution-may-redeem-one-of-darwins-oldest-rivals

 

[mrcharles]

God exists because I have seen too many coincidences for him not to. Does god send people that have never heard of him to burn in hell? Hell no. That god doesn't exist and if he did, I wouldn't be a follower. If god existed and came down from the heavens and told me my duty, I would do it, but playing a game of faith, I will not.