Question Speculation: RDNA2 + CDNA Architectures thread

[uzzi38]

All die sizes are within 5mm^2. The poster here has been right on some things in the past afaik, and to his credit was the first to saying 505mm^2 for Navi21, which other people have backed up. Even still though, take the following with a pich of salt.

Navi21 - 505mm^2

Navi22 - 340mm^2

Navi23 - 240mm^2

Source is the following post: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/PC_Shopping/M.1588075782.A.C1E.html

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

What if:
N21 - 80 CUs
N22 - 40 CUs
N23 - 32 CUs
N24 - 64 CUs

Doesn't this make sense?

64CU can be cut down from N21, you don't need a new chip for It.
N22 and N23 is too close.
I think
N21 - 80CU 384bit
N22 - 48CU 192bit
N23 - 32CU 128bit
Would make more sense.
BTW at reddit Navi 10a and Navi 10b has only 300-1000Mhz or 1400 in freq_table_gfx[1] (MHz) while navi14 has 300-1900mhz for some reason.

 

[Glo.]

OP here. These pptables are test configurations, they are not used by production hardware (you can likely boot with some parameters to use them though). And yes they are the same in macOS and in Linux.

Thanks, mate

 

[moinmoin]

Yep. Its worth adding those are GPUs for Apple, and those usually have lower power and lower clock speeds, compared to desktop GPUs.

There is nothing Apple-specific about the specs. The most surprising part is that Apple keeps including (or AMD keeps giving them) the hardware data for the APUs. With the upcoming transition to Apple Silicon the chance of AMD APUs actually being used in Apple hardware is essentially nil.

OP here. These pptables are test configurations, they are not used by production hardware (you can likely boot with some parameters to use them though). And yes they are the same in macOS and in Linux.

Somebody asked and you answered this already on reddit, but I'd like to second the request reading this data from earlier macOS versions to compare how much changed, if at all.

But in any case this is a great find, thanks for sharing (especially also for documenting how to reproduce)!

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Socket power limit for Navi 10a and b is only 180W and for Navi 14 110W, I think It's just TDP and not TBP.
So 170 or 240W won't be for the complete board. With that It looks like 50% better performance/W is most likely true and 2x better performance/W was BS as I said many times.

 

[uzzi38]

There is nothing Apple-specific about the specs. The most surprising part is that Apple keeps including (or AMD keeps giving them) the hardware data for the APUs. With the upcoming transition to Apple Silicon the chance of AMD APUs actually being used in Apple hardware is essentially nil.

Somebody asked and you answered this already on reddit, but I'd like to second the request reading this data from earlier macOS versions to compare how much changed, if at all.

But in any case this is a great find, thanks for sharing (especially also for documenting how to reproduce)!

Pretty sure AMD just gives them the driver code as one big blob and they just integrate it in.

Nothing more to it.

More importantly, did anyone notice how the Navi10 clocks are extremely low?

 

[NostaSeronx]

N21 = 80 CUs
N22 = 40 CUs
N23 = 24 CUs
N24 = 10 CUs




Thumbnail click it:
4x14 in Arden, sorry about the weird counting I did.


Thumbnail click it:
3x8 in Mero which is also Van Gogh. Normal counting here, sorry.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1220676647411769344

=> 00890F00h \ Zen2 \ VanGogh \ VN-A0 \ 7nm

https://twitter.com/x/status/1290680255515107329

=> 00890F80h \ Zen2 \ Mero \ MR-A0 \ 7nm
Same model range = same die.
Van Gogh being Family 17h 90h-97h and Mero being Family 17h 98h-9Fh.

It puts GFX1032 specs in question as well since only Navi21 SCBU is different than Navi21 actual.

Arden is Navi21 SCBU => 80 CUs to 56 CUs
Ariel is Navi22 SCBU => 40 CUs to 40 CUs
Mero is GFX1032/GFX1033/GFX1040 which is Navi23 SCBU => 24 CUs to 24 CUs.

We have to confirm from two sources and more these days. Or, we are going to get dumped with 7.5W-18W Van Gogh rumors...

The full stack part is this:
N22 => P20
N23 => P22
N24 => P23

 

[uzzi38]

Socket power limit for Navi 10a and b is only 180W and for Navi 14 110W, I think It's just TDP and not TBP.
So 170 or 240W won't be for the complete board. With that It looks like 50% better performance/W is most likely true and 2x better performance/W was BS as I said many times.

This. The power figures there are very likely GPU only.

This is a huge guess, but I'm expecting 300W TBP at that higher power target and ~275W at the lower one.

 

[leoneazzurro]

This. The power figures there are very likely GPU only.

This is a huge guess, but I'm expecting 300W TBP at that higher power target and ~275W at the lower one.

But the numbers for Navi 10 are about the 5700 (180W for around 1400Mhz clock). So I am not convinced these numbers are for GPU only.

 

[uzzi38]

But the numbers for Navi 10 are about the 5700 (180W for around 1400Mhz clock). So I am not convinced these numbers are for GPU only.

Oh, you may be right actually.

Take a look at this:

AMD Radeon Pro 5700 Specs

AMD Navi 10, 1350 MHz, 2304 Cores, 144 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 1500 MHz, 256 bit

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Glo.]

So 170 or 240W won't be for the complete board. With that It looks like 50% better performance/W is most likely true and 2x better performance/W was BS as I said many times.

Thats not how I remember this from the time that I was more interested in Apple software, and kexts.

I'll check on that, still not saying youre wrong, tho.

 

[jpiniero]

There is nothing Apple-specific about the specs. The most surprising part is that Apple keeps including (or AMD keeps giving them) the hardware data for the APUs. With the upcoming transition to Apple Silicon the chance of AMD APUs actually being used in Apple hardware is essentially nil.

It's entirely possible that there will be an x86 refresh of the 21" iMac, just like the 27" did in August. While the odds of that being an AMD APU is pretty low, it is possible.

 

[Glo.]

Oh, you may be right actually.

Take a look at this:

AMD Radeon Pro 5700 Specs

AMD Navi 10, 1350 MHz, 2304 Cores, 144 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 8192 MB GDDR6, 1500 MHz, 256 bit

www.techpowerup.com

AMD Radeon Pro 5700 XT Specs

AMD Navi 10, 1499 MHz, 2560 Cores, 160 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 16384 MB GDDR6, 1500 MHz, 256 bit

www.techpowerup.com

And here is full Radeon Pro 5700 XT specs. So those might be power tables for Apple GPUs, after all, and Im remembering this correctly .

 

[CastleBravo]

AMD Radeon Pro 5700 XT Specs

AMD Navi 10, 1499 MHz, 2560 Cores, 160 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 16384 MB GDDR6, 1500 MHz, 256 bit

www.techpowerup.com

And here is full Radeon Pro 5700 XT specs. So those might be power tables for Apple GPUs, after all, and Im remembering this correctly .

I wonder if Apple is choosing to run Navi21 a bit slower than what we might see in the PC market...

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Thats not how I remember this from the time that I was more interested in Apple software, and kexts.

I'll check on that, still not saying youre wrong, tho.

I am just saying based on what was shown in the tables, I don't know If It's correct or not.
Just for comparison purposes.

Navi22 could be TDP: 170W and TBP: 200-215W. Don't know why 5700 has 30W and XT has 45W increase over TDP for TBP, when the memory is the same, that's why I used both for Navi22.

 

[dzoni2k2]

Looking at that dual axial fan cooler N22 is probably around 200W.

 

[Glo.]

I wonder if Apple is choosing to run Navi21 a bit slower than what we might see in the PC market...

If we go by Navi 10 specs in Apple power tables, and Navi 21, we can see that 2050 MHz version of Navi 21 has 200W TDP, and 2200 MHz version has 238W TDP.

As has been shown, Radeon Pro 5700 is 130W TDP, for GPU only portion, using Apple specs, with 1400 MHz clock speed.

Wait a minute.

So its 2050 MHz version that has 200W TDP. If it 256 bit bus, even full board this way should be 250W TDP, with GDDR6 memory.

Holy ...

 

[eek2121]

Power limit, not TDP.

Weeee!

If these rumored specs are accurate, good god I feel bad for those who blindly bought a 3080.

EDIT: Glo, I don’t know why that is surprising, AMD did state a 50% uplift. They aren’t the company to pull numbers out of their ass these days.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

If we go by Navi 10 specs in Apple power tables, and Navi 21, we can see that 2050 MHz version of Navi 21 has 200W TDP, and 2200 MHz version has 238W TDP.

As has been shown, Radeon Pro 5700 is 130W TDP, for GPU only portion, using Apple specs, with 1400 MHz clock speed.

Wait a minute.

So its 2050 MHz version that has 200W TDP. If it 256 bit bus, even full board this way should be 250W TDP, with GDDR6 memory.

Holy ...

I don't think It will have more than 60-64CU.

 

[Glo.]

I don't think It will have more than 60-64CU.

Thats another possibility that it is cut down variant with 72 CUs, for example.

 

[eek2121]

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-navi-21-to-feature-80-cus-navi-22-40-cus-and-navi-23-32-cus in case it wasn’t posted.

 

[Glo.]

OP here. These pptables are test configurations, they are not used by production hardware (you can likely boot with some parameters to use them though). And yes they are the same in macOS and in Linux.

Are there any clock speeds available for Navi 23 in the tables, yet?

 

[eek2121]

I am curious if we’ll get a Navi 21 72-80CU variant with a 2.5Ghz clock. They would really be pushing TDP at that point, but...

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Getting pretty hype in here.

I just need to repeat the mantra:

I control the hype, the hype does not control me
I control the hype, the hype does not control me
I control the hype, the hype does not control me...

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

BTW guys If this is true then It's very good for desktop, but think about the mobile versions! That's where It will be impressive.
Just for comparison:
RX5600M in Witcher 3 works at 1352Mhz and power consumption is reported as 90W. Link
RX5600 Pulse works at 1712Mhz(average) and power consumption in Metro Last Light is 160W. Link
So by decreasing clocks by 21% you lower the power consumption by 44%.
If you apply the same to Navi22 215W TBP ~205W average power consumption and let's say 2350Mhz(average) you get ~115W average power consumption and clockspeed will be 1975Mhz! Lower It by another 10% and you are at 90W or maybe less and 1775Mhz average clockspeed. So you have the same power consumption as RX5600M, but with a much higher performance(31% just from clockspeed difference, then add 10% more CU and some IPC increase).

 

[eek2121]

Getting pretty hype in here.

I just need to repeat the mantra:

I control the hype, the hype does not control me
I control the hype, the hype does not control me
I control the hype, the hype does not control me...

No hype needed. We have enough evidence in front of us to show us that AMD is coming in hot this time around.