Question Speculation: RDNA2 + CDNA Architectures thread

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uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
2,702
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All die sizes are within 5mm^2. The poster here has been right on some things in the past afaik, and to his credit was the first to saying 505mm^2 for Navi21, which other people have backed up. Even still though, take the following with a pich of salt.

Navi21 - 505mm^2

Navi22 - 340mm^2

Navi23 - 240mm^2

Source is the following post: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/PC_Shopping/M.1588075782.A.C1E.html
 

kurosaki

Senior member
Feb 7, 2019
258
250
86
If they marketed DLSS as the function it is, upscaling and AA.
I would totally buy the concept if Nvidia marketed 1440p DLSS to 4k as 1440p With Nvidia special sauce AAx16 and 1080p DLSS to 4k as 1080p With Nvidia special sauce AAx4 or something. Heck, there has been sepia-filters, inverted color filters and what not included in old drivers as extra post process effects. But it isn't comparable to native resolution and if Nvidia succeeds with tricking enough people that 1440p with Nvidia AA is indeed 4k, we all loose. The only thing that would have happened if DLSS is accepted in the terms it is presented today, is that a 4k resolution in 2018 is equal to a 1440p resolution today. Nvidia is lowering the bar of quality with buzzwords. Not even the heaviest fanboys should be pleased with this. Demand more from your favourite GPU manufacturer! Dont sell their redacted scam to others for free on forums like theese! Nvidia only sees a chance to gain 25% for free. It's all there is.

Profanity isn't allowed in the tech areas.

AT Mod Usandthem
 
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Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
1,355
653
136
This entire "better than native" is a terrible meme, due to native being blurred by TAA. Use TSSAA8x like in idTech engine and there's zero chance for DLSS 2 to even look as good as native.

Thats the thing, as long as you cannot freely chose the AA algorithm and you are stuck with TAA - TAA is essentially what you get when choosing native 4k. DLSS replaces TAA while upscaling - so you are in a win-win situation image quality and framerate wise.
I agree that DLSS is not totally free of artifacts - but hey it is an option for a reason.
 

soresu

Platinum Member
Dec 19, 2014
2,961
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I suppose Minecraft is a neat game but DLSS in Minecraft at 4K or 8K is.... I'll refrain from using a word that would surely insult a portion of the global populace and isn't something I'd normally blurt out either.
The thought did cross my mind more than once when seeing Minecraft, or even Quake 2 RTX demos.

If they had churned out FEAR RTX I would have been a bit more impressed.
 

kurosaki

Senior member
Feb 7, 2019
258
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86
Thats the thing, as long as you cannot freely chose the AA algorithm and you are stuck with TAA - TAA is essentially what you get when choosing native 4k. DLSS replaces TAA while upscaling - so you are in a win-win situation image quality and framerate wise.
I agree that DLSS is not totally free of artifacts - but hey it is an option for a reason.
Then why not call it what it is? 1440p upscaled to 4k with DLSS Should just be named 1440p Nvidia AAx4. Or something like that. Why call it another res? (8k gaming cards and what not) They could market hype the redacted out of it, or be honest with a really great AA-method. There lies all the difference in the world.

Profanity is not allowed in the tech areas.

AT Mod Usandthem
 
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Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
1,355
653
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Then why not call it what it is? 1440p upscaled to 4k with DLSS Should just be named 1440p Nvidia AAx4. Or something like that. Why call it another res? (8k gaming cards and what not) They could market hype the redacted out of it, or be honest with a really great AA-method. There lies all the difference in the world.

Personally i do not much care about what NVidia calls it, i am just interested in the result. Why are you so concerned about the naming?

Purely from a technical perspective it is not just AA, it is reconstruction based on prior knowledge. This knowledge is gained by training on high resolution images. So DLSS is adding information, which mathematically is not present in the lower resolution version. So nothing much wrong calling it 4k i believe.
 
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Nox51

Senior member
Jul 4, 2009
376
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Personally i do not much care about what NVidia calls it, i am just interested in the result. Why are you so concerned about the naming?

Purely from a technical perspective it is not just AA, it is reconstruction based on prior knowledge. This knowledge is gained by training on high resolution images. So DLSS is adding information, which mathematically is not present in the lower resolution version. So nothing much wrong calling it 4k i believe.


Other than it not being, you know, rendering at 4k natively as it should be.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,873
1,527
136
DLSS is not a AA method for god sake, its a good upscaler that uses AI to create a image of higher resolution than the original using data that the game provides. Is not a simple upscaler either, as not upscaler in the world (that we know off), is able to produce a 1080P image from a 540p one that looks better than native 720p and is very close to native 1080p. That is just amazing in my book, not sure why so much hate. If this were to become a stardart it is a true game changer, but im not even sure that Nvidia wants that as this would extend the life of the gpus.

The Radeon Image Sharpener is not DLSS, but it is a base to start if AMD were to make a DLSS alternative, they would need to combine it with their own upscaler, as it nows depends on the game having his own upscaler, and it would need to do more than just normal upscale and what is doing right now.

The problem with DLSS, as with everything, is that is complicated to implement and is propietary, if something like DLSS were to succeed outside games sponsored by Nvidia it needs to be implemented at DX12, this is why Freesync became the standart over G-Sync or why Mantle died and DX12 became the standart. The problem is that we are now talking about something that would make GPUs to last longer, and thats a problem.

EDIT: I forgot to add that DLSS adds data to the image (and artifacts) the result it provides does not comes only from the original image.
 
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jamescox

Senior member
Nov 11, 2009
642
1,104
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I know it makes very little actual sense but there's little arguing with demonstrated reality. There's a dedicated section of the market who buy these things. Don't ask me why.

The 8k is just some sort of silly marketing attempt to differentiate the 3090 from the 3080. The huge 3090 die will sell very well indeed for deep learning workstations etc, even if it has to be as a Pro card, so NV are happily covered.



This is where people start getting a bit ahead of themselves. Zen was resulted from a huge, multi year, investment while Intel ran into endless process trouble. Here, they've had one years work since the 5700/XT, only mild process improvements, and they've had to jam ray tracing into the cards while they're at it - as Turing showed that isn't free.

Vs a half decent die shrink & new architecture, you would, a priori, have expected them to drop back from last years position.

Perhaps they've done well enough to hold the line, perhaps a bit better, perhaps slightly worse. Honestly that isn't critical here.

What's critical is that they do a fast, organised, refresh of their entire GPU stack. Ideally competitive mobile GPU's into the bargain. That'll show that they've got/are putting in the resources to take it fully seriously. Frankly its been far too long since they've been able to do this.

If they're doing that then, yes, we'll have a rather competitive market again.

The 8K marking BS is very suspicious to me. The number of people with 8K displays of any kind is very small and most of them are not gamers. The 3090 8K gaming stuff makes me think Nvidia knows that they are going to be outperformed by a cheaper card at 4K. They can make some claim of superiority at 8K, even though it is completely irrelevant. This happens all of the time in the gpu market where people read the reviews of the top end cards and use that in a purchasing decision, even though they are buying a low to mid range card.

Zen was a huge investment, but RDNA almost certainly has a bit of Zen DNA in it. I wouldn't be surprised that it shares some design bits, perhaps caches and such. They are going to be using "infinity architecture" across both cpus and gpus. AMD has more than 1 team working on iterations of Zen processors, so each Zen release isn't just work done since the previous release. This stuff has long lead times, so RDNA2 work would have started probably several years ago, just like work is probably being done on Zen 5 right now. This is why a bad decision several years ago can have repercussions now. A bad desicion back then may also not be fixable for quite some time. If Nvidia went in the wrong direction with the 30 series, then it isn't going to be fixed anytime soon. Also, they needed ray tracing for the consoles, so that was partially payed for by Microsoft and Sony. It wasn't just shoe horned in at the last minute. I wouldn't be surprised if ray tracing was in development before Vega was even released.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,063
7,489
136
DSR and DLSS are nearly opposites.

DLSS takes an internal lower resolution and scales it up to display resolution, DSR takes an internal higher resolution and scales it down to display resolution.

DLSS results in significantly higher FPS at display resolution.
DSR results in significantly lower FPS at display resolution.

DSR is ridiculously expensive to run and craters your FPS, so it's no surprise it didn't catch on.

- I agree with basically everything you said, but I'm not sure about the "DSR never caught on" comment. There is nothing to "catch on". Its an SSAA injector built into the driver. If you are playing older games and have a buttload of performance sitting around "wasted" you might as well downsample 4K to 1080P and get buttery delicious image quality on some normally craptastic looking old game.

You know all those super nice looking marketing shots your game never looks like when you run it? That's a super sampled image (much larger image crammed into a smaller viewing area).

I use DSR all the time when I play older games.

AMD has the same thing, only they call it VSR.

If you're playing an older game and your GPU is sitting at 50% utilization or something, crank up that SSAA and at least get a much better looking game for the same FPS. Of course if you're playing some newfangled hotness and struggling to maintain even 60FPS then DSR/VSR is about the last thing you want to use.
 
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Kuiva maa

Member
May 1, 2014
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232
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Digital Foundry looking at series X. Look at the Hitman 2 walking around the estate benchmark. Seems to be hitting 2080S performance provided the 4k console setting is comparable to 4k PC maxed settings. Definitely going to be matching the 2080 as a minimum.

They did mention MS confirmed that XSX is running XOX games in compatibility mode without activating the newer architectural enhancements. I wouldn't be surprised if XSX wasn't running max clocks either in this scenario, just targets certain numbers that allow it to run older games without compatibility issues. Either way, it wasn't the full power of the console at display there.
 

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,727
3,152
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They did mention MS confirmed that XSX is running XOX games in compatibility mode without activating the newer architectural enhancements. I wouldn't be surprised if XSX wasn't running max clocks either in this scenario, just targets certain numbers that allow it to run older games without compatibility issues. Either way, it wasn't the full power of the console at display there.

Indeed and the settings are not 100% comparable and I have no idea where TPU actually perform their test. It is just an initial indicator that the Series X is showing good numbers even in this sub optimal state.
 

Qwertilot

Golden Member
Nov 28, 2013
1,604
257
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The 8K marking BS is very suspicious to me. The number of people with 8K displays of any kind is very small and most of them are not gamers. The 3090 8K gaming stuff makes me think Nvidia knows that they are going to be outperformed by a cheaper card at 4K. They can make some claim of superiority at 8K, even though it is completely irrelevant. This happens all of the time in the gpu market where people read the reviews of the top end cards and use that in a purchasing decision, even though they are buying a low to mid range card.

I really wouldn't fixate on that! Marketing departments produce nonsense at the best of times. Ask one to justify something like the 3090 and, well!

Its a snappy catch phrase. Do you want them to say 'its got a crazy premium (over the 3080) because we've found out that people will pay for this sort of thing?'.
 

Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
4,262
5,259
136
- I agree with basically everything you said, but I'm not sure about the "DSR never caught on" comment. There is nothing to "catch on". Its an SSAA injector built into the driver. If you are playing older games and have a buttload of performance sitting around "wasted" you might as well downsample 4K to 1080P and get buttery delicious image quality on some normally craptastic looking old game.

You know all those super nice looking marketing shots your game never looks like when you run it? That's a super sampled image (much larger image crammed into a smaller viewing area).

I use DSR all the time when I play older games.

AMD has the same thing, only they call it VSR.

If you're playing an older game and your GPU is sitting at 50% utilization or something, crank up that SSAA and at least get a much better looking game for the same FPS. Of course if you're playing some newfangled hotness and struggling to maintain even 60FPS then DSR/VSR is about the last thing you want to use.

True. DSR is not something that needs in game support.

But it probably would be better if there were in game support. Some games have fixed resolution 2D overlay menus. Run at higher resolution and the menus take less screen space, now downscale them and the UI is getting a small poorly rendered UI with less pixels and size than before.
 

PhoBoChai

Member
Oct 10, 2017
119
389
106
When you compare something with TAA, that something is always better than TAA. Here that something is DLSS.
If I am not wrong that games that supports DLSS only has TAA or poor implementation of some AA. In that that way DLSS will automatically look better than native resolution.

DLSS is only implemented in games with TAA, because it is a more advanced TAA with a motion vector stage for image recombination, this part runs NV's ML algo to determine how best to reconstruct the new image based on the prior image & motion vector samples. This processing of motion vector is the reason for performance penalty, typically 1.4 to 2ms depending on the available GPU power.

If devs use another form of AA, you can't have DLSS. Sadly, TAA is usually terrible so that's why so many gamers get fooled into believing DLSS is some magic "looks better than native".
 

PhoBoChai

Member
Oct 10, 2017
119
389
106
Then why not call it what it is? 1440p upscaled to 4k with DLSS Should just be named 1440p Nvidia AAx4. Or something like that. Why call it another res? (8k gaming cards and what not) They could market hype the redacted out of it, or be honest with a really great AA-method. There lies all the difference in the world.

It's not just AA.

It's quite novel and has higher potential due to sampling previous images AND their motion vectors, which is stored in in the frame buffers, hence the perf impact associated with it isn't minimal like regular shader AA or just upscaling. The time cost makes it less useful when you already have high FPS, as the 1.4 to 2ms can eat into any potential gains at rendering a lower internal res.

NV runs their AI to determine the best algo for each game to produce the best temporal reconstruction. But its not fool proof, if devs use effects that are particle or compute based without motion vectors, DLSS gets confused and causes artifacts.

It's good, and it can get better. AMD needs their own ML equivalent, not just because NV marketing is awesome at getting mindshare, but these techniques do have potential to allow weaker GPUs to game at 4K res at comparable IQ to native 4K, once all the artifacts are solved.
 
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kurosaki

Senior member
Feb 7, 2019
258
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Ever heard of FSAA or Super Sampling? DLSS is more or less the same but marketed in reverse, With sprinkles of AI-fairy dust on top. And could you believe the images coming out of the process looks better than the Native resoulution?! Whooooa!

"Full-scene anti-aliasing by super-sampling usually means that each full frame is rendered at double (2x) or quadruple (4x) the display resolution, and then down-sampled to match the display resolution. Thus, a 2x FSAA would render 4 super-sampled pixels for each single pixel of each frame. Rendering at larger resolutions will produce better results; however, more processor power is needed, which can degrade performance and frame rate. "
 

Panino Manino

Senior member
Jan 28, 2017
847
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About the clocks, I had thought about this and excuse me if it's obvious of everyone.
I believe that many leaks are "orchestrated", that these companies let the information leak to the public. This recent lack of leaks from AMD if intentional to let them work their best until the last minute, not creating expectations that they'll be forced to meet, and possibly fail. That explains the situation with the clocks, right? First they want to built inventory waiting until the last week to fulfill that promises of launching before the new video games, and have time to test and select the skus with the higher clock possible to better compete with Nvidia.
Maybe they'll even create some card with a bigger than normal cooler for a halo product with insane clock.

I just hope that TSMC delivery.
But with that Zen 3 leak things are looking promising...

Now, about Image Upscaling, it may be a possibility but the new video games are launching without a IM solution. Bad news?
I still believe that RTG will announce an in-house solution in the works coming in a future update.
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
9,198
3,185
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www.teamjuchems.com
Hype related, I just purchased a double digit number of AMD stocks in my 401k plan. Most industry analysts think I am wrong, but if Zen 3 is anything like Zen 2 and datacenter demand grows, it seems like there is a long runway for increasing revenues (at Intel's expense, of course) and RDNA2 might be shiny, but mostly because both of these things are happening in October.

I can wish that I had committed to this last week and got more shares for less money, but as with my Tesla purchase (and sale - in @$130 and out at $300 when I was trying to get funds in place to buy lower) just getting in can be the important factor.

Anyway, I feel like this will go well enough for a bounce. That and crazy monetary policies inflating stocks that show any promise at all, ha.

I need the markets to feel the hype now too!
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
9,198
3,185
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www.teamjuchems.com
It's how forums work - if you can repeat the same thing enough (DLSS isn't important) then it somehow becomes truth, as DLSS is actually quite important this takes several pages of echo's for it to sink in.

It's an nvidia feature. Let's discuss it in the nvidia thread. Or make a new thread. It is only tangentially relevant to the RDNA2/CDNA leaks (or lack thereof) we are getting.

The moment AMD drops some feature for RNDA2 that sounds like DLSS by another name, by all means, let's rehash pages of people not changing opinions.
 
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