Question Speculation: RDNA2 + CDNA Architectures thread

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uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
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All die sizes are within 5mm^2. The poster here has been right on some things in the past afaik, and to his credit was the first to saying 505mm^2 for Navi21, which other people have backed up. Even still though, take the following with a pich of salt.

Navi21 - 505mm^2

Navi22 - 340mm^2

Navi23 - 240mm^2

Source is the following post: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/PC_Shopping/M.1588075782.A.C1E.html
 

Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Ok, then 80CU is max.

Currently it looks that way, but then again the majority of gamers game on Windows anyways.

So You're saying that AMD has managed to conspire together with Valve, Intel, Google, Microsoft, Oracle, Redhat AND Linus Torvalds etc to contribute with phony AMD code? This might be huge! 240 CU, 150TF, 6900XT confirmed!

#The_Linux_Conspiracy_2020



Hypothetically speaking....What would the consequences be if AMD decided to not out a larger CU count offering at this time? No phony code, just no code yet.

No hype train fuel. Just curious about it as I'd imagine the majority of the intended end users would be on Windows anyways.
 

blckgrffn

Diamond Member
May 1, 2003
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Occam's razor ruining all the fun...

Per the usual.

Now don't be laying razors on these tracks! The train refuses to derail because of these silly things!

@Kenmitch a ways back in this thread, didn't we see a commit comment that essentially said they were going to stop including hardware specs in the code? If that's true I guess all we would see is a new card ID show up? And what's to stop that from dropping at release or just before launch?

We definitely need more fuel for the hype train, what with all these people talking sense in this thread.
 

ModEl4

Member
Oct 14, 2019
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It is interesting though that the rumored Big Navi clocks are only 2.1GHz. If true, it is an indication that Big Navi is N7 and PS5 is N7+ EUV (or N7P, but I doubt). And then we have N7E for series X, I wonder how difficult or time consuming would be to convert the RDNA2 design to all these processes. With RDNA1 we had 1905MHz for 5700XT, 1845MHz for 5500XT (-3%) and then the comfort zone (a good compromise between performance/W) for the design was at 1750MHz (highest 5600XT designs, mild OC 5700 designs). PS5 2230MHz figure should be the 5500XT RDNA1 clock level equivalent, (judging by the Marc Cerny presentation and the way he frased his comments regarding the clocks) meaning that a classic RDNA2 design AIB in a N7+ EUV process can hit 2,3GHz (2.5GHz air cooled) Since N7+ EUV performance is +10% in relation with N7, then the 2.1GHz clocks should be justified then in N7. Also the +10% perf the EUV design enjoys in relation with plain N7, is in the new TSMC report, before 1 year was at the same performance and before 2,5 years, EUV performance projections in official TSMC reports was worst the N7. N7+ EUV was not so successful as other TSMC's nodes in such designs and it would be logical to assume that TSMC in order to improve the performance of the node so much in the last year should have in volume production a design and a partner such as Sony and PS5, it fits somehow. Also if Sony wanted to have the option to migrate in a later phase of the console life to smaller EUV process it would be easier I would assume. Anyway, enough with the speculations, but a classic 2.1GHz RDNA2 design with just 5% IPC improvements, 128 RBEs , 8 primitives and 80CUs with enough bandwidth to feed the RBEs (1TB/s) it would be past 3080 by more than 10% easily. I really don't know what to think about the rumored 256bit memory bus/128RBEs and 128MB cache design, lol the ArtX dream lives on, we will see.
 
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Heartbreaker

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2006
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It is interesting though that the rumored Big Navi clocks are only 2.1GHz. If true, it is an indication that Big Navi is N7 and PS5 is N7+ EUV (or N7P, but I doubt). And then we have N7E for series X, ...

All three are most likely on the same process, and clock speed differences are a reflection of what they need to be, to hit power targets. Sony pushing the hardest to extract performance in exchange for power. IIRC, PS5 uses up to 340W from a fairly small die.
 
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NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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Arden, Ariel, Lucienne and Mero are all N7-enhanced.

Arden = Anaconda in Xbox Series X
Mero = Lockhart in Xbox Series S
Ariel = Oberon in Playstation 5
Lucienne = Refresh of Renoir ==> Acton which is the Surface Edition, like Winston is to Picasso and not to Raven Ridge.

Seems Models x8h-xFh are N7e for 40h-4Fh(PS5), 60h-6Fh(RNR), 80h-8Fh(XSX), 90h-9Fh(XSS).

However, mainline products of CDNA + RDNA2 might not be N7-enhanced.
 
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NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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Isn't the Playstation 5 set for 150 watts just like the PS4 Pro?

Take the max CPU cluster power out of the PS4 Pro => 2x25W => 100W for GPU. Which is basically really close to 1266 MHz @ 150W for Polaris10.
Take the max CPU cluster power out of the PS5 => 1x25W => 125W for GPU. RDNA2 isn't out yet so can't compare 125W to Navy Flounder or anything.

100W @ 911 MHz vs 125W @ 2.33 GHz
~1.5x
50W @ 911 MHz or 100W @ 1.3665 GHz
~1.5x
25W @ 911 MHz or 100W @ 2.05 GHz

100W to 125W
~1.122321429x (150W to 185W ratio-ed to 100 to 125W)
125W @ 2.3 GHz

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Stop spreading these lies. The PS5 is not power hungry at all.
 
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raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
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No, we don't know anything about real power consumption. Goes for both PS5 and XBSX/XBSS. The PSU has nothing to do with it.

Why? Because there's a 310W rated PSU inside the PS4 Pro yet power consumption under full load is around like <=180W.

Even lesser. Digitalfoundry measured 155w in Infamous First Light at 4k on PS4 Pro even though it had a 310w rated PSU.


Xbox One X had a power draw of 175w with a much smaller 245w rated PSU


I expect Xbox Series X total power draw to be 200-210w and the PS5 below 200w given the lower CPU clocks and the use of Smartshift to intelligently move power between CPU and GPU.
 

insertcarehere

Senior member
Jan 17, 2013
639
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Isn't the Playstation 5 set for 150 watts just like the PS4 Pro?

Take the max CPU cluster power out of the PS4 Pro => 2x25W => 100W for GPU. Which is basically really close to 1266 MHz @ 150W for Polaris10.
Take the max CPU cluster power out of the PS5 => 1x25W => 125W for GPU. RDNA2 isn't out yet so can't compare 125W to Navy Flounder or anything.

100W @ 911 MHz vs 125W @ 2.33 GHz
~1.5x
50W @ 911 MHz or 100W @ 1.3665 GHz
~1.5x
25W @ 911 MHz or 100W @ 2.05 GHz

100W to 125W
~1.122321429x (150W to 185W ratio-ed to 100 to 125W)
125W @ 2.3 GHz

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Stop spreading these lies. The PS5 is not power hungry at all.

I am more inclined to believe closer to 300w than 150w for the PS5 just based on how large (and frankly unwieldy) the chassis is this time around. It's either that or believing that Sony's engineers are straight up bad at their jobs, as the X1X is tiny in comparison and can still dissipate ~175-180W of heat without much trouble.

 
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blckgrffn

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I am more inclined to believe closer to 300w than 150w for the PS5 just based on how large (and frankly unwieldy) the chassis is this time around. It's either that or believing that Sony's engineers are straight up bad at their jobs, as the X1X is tiny in comparison and can still dissipate ~175-180W of heat without much trouble.
View attachment 30479
View attachment 30480

I’ve read that Sony absolutely hated the acoustics of the PS4 Pro. Given how much a larger chassis costs, it seems silly that they pursued that alone, but maybe that plays into it as well?

I like never hearing my consoles outside of disc access spin-up, I am hopeful the PS5 delivers on that.

🤷‍♂️

I personally don’t care how tiny things are. That’s not a feature I shop for in my consoles. It always annoyed me on the WiiU (proud owner with the other 9 fools!) that they bragged up its thinness then it had a tiny fan that spun way up even though its power usage must have been relatively trivial. The retail cardboard box was already enormous because of the controller tablet, making the console case 50% taller to have a bigger heatsink and fan wouldn’t have killed anyone. /rant (Yeah I am that guy with a full atx case sitting next to my tower speakers, it balances out the look with the sub on the other side. In my living room 😛)
 

blckgrffn

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XBOX X has sucks in cold air from the bottom and forces it out at the top. It's the most efficient design if you think about it.

Like the Apple Trashcan Pro, but for the masses!

hahaha, jokes on me. I just read up on that model and appears heat soak killed the GPUs in those things dead super fast and Apple had basically no trade in value on them. So, I hope it’s way better than that!

Beyond the rounded vs monolithic look they look pretty similar. But the total TDP on a loaded Mac Pro of that vintage must have been potentially quite high...

Series X: 11” tall, 6” wide. Cooling 200W, tops.

Mac Pro Can: 10” tall, 7” wide. Over 400w according to Anandtech. Ouch.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/mac-pro-review-late-2013/14 (final graph)
 
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insertcarehere

Senior member
Jan 17, 2013
639
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I personally don’t care how tiny things are. That’s not a feature I shop for in my consoles. It always annoyed me on the WiiU (proud owner with the other 9 fools!) that they bragged up its thinness then it had a tiny fan that spun way up even though its power usage must have been relatively trivial. The retail cardboard box was already enormous because of the controller tablet, making the console case 50% taller to have a bigger heatsink and fan wouldn’t have killed anyone. /rant (Yeah I am that guy with a full atx case sitting next to my tower speakers, it balances out the look with the sub on the other side. In my living room 😛)

Different strokes for different folks I guess, just took a look at our living room and the PS5 wouldn't fit on the entertainment center as is without significantly reshuffling everything else, the series X could probably fit behind the TV but neither would work well in the bedroom (where any console would probably be), my monitors/TVs will still be 1080p for the time being so Series S looks mighty attractive.
 
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uzzi38

Platinum Member
Oct 16, 2019
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Apologies for the double post, but this was posted last week. I don't think it was posted here? It's a look into Devil May Cry 5 on the PS5 using raytrace ability on RDNA2.

4k30 FPS with RTRT enabled for both reflections and GI?

That doesn't sound impressive at first, but consider that the 5700XT averages about 47 FPS on average in DMCV at 4K.

That sounds pretty well optimised if nothing else.

Also, at the end they said RT off for up to 120fps, I'm assuming they mean 1080p120 and potentially 4K60. If they manage that second one, that's nearly a 30% improvement over the 5700XT again.

Not bad at all.


 
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TESKATLIPOKA

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May 1, 2020
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4k30 FPS with RTRT enabled for both reflections and GI?

That doesn't sound impressive at first, but consider that the 5700XT averages about 47 FPS on average in DMCV at 4K.

That sounds pretty well optimised if nothing else.

Also, at the end they said RT off for up to 120fps, I'm assuming they mean 1080p120 and potentially 4K60. If they manage that second one, that's nearly a 30% improvement over the 5700XT again.

Not bad at all.


RTX 2080 also manages 60FPS in 4K, so If 52CU RDNA2 manages only the same performance(FPS) with same image quality , then I don't see what's so great about that.

edit: so It's PS5 and not Xbox. That would be pretty good.
 
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A///

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Feb 24, 2017
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4k30 FPS with RTRT enabled for both reflections and GI?

That doesn't sound impressive at first, but consider that the 5700XT averages about 47 FPS on average in DMCV at 4K.

That sounds pretty well optimised if nothing else.

Also, at the end they said RT off for up to 120fps, I'm assuming they mean 1080p120 and potentially 4K60. If they manage that second one, that's nearly a 30% improvement over the 5700XT again.

Not bad at all.
Considering the PS5 and Xbox's have a cut down GPU the performance difference should be noticeable. The PS5 RDNA2 based GPU is a 36 CU unit. The lowest Big Navi is a 60 CU part for PC, correct? There was some discussion of the graphics not being too good where I got that video link from. We don't know how old that gameplay video is and this game is not due for another month. It's also built atop a game that came out a year ago and wasn't designed with RT in mind. It's a good effort.

TechPowerUp had this to say to about the Series X GPU. I'm afraid I don't know much about AMD GPUs to understand how powerful a CU or if a double CU is less than two good separate CUs.


The RDNA2 GPU powering the Xbox Series X SoC features 52 compute units spread across 26 RDNA2 dual compute units. The silicon itself physically features two additional dual CUs (taking the total physical CU count to 56), but are disabled (possibly harvesting headroom).



I bring up the consoles because I was thoroughly confused by your post. That video is PS5 video, not PC video. It doesn't seem like there's plans to bring it to PC for now. Your 30% figure should be higher given the cut down GPU in the consoles. This new gen of consoles brings a lot of value to the console market, but I do not think they'll be on the same footing as PCs. Close but not the same.
 
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