Question Speculation: RDNA3 + CDNA2 Architectures Thread

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uzzi38

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Leeea

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In other news, Gameworks is back: https://www.techpowerup.com/review/portal-with-rtx/3.html

AMD will never catch up, because catching up is useless in a Nvidia world.
I wonder if the game will run raytracing on AMD hardware? Or if Nvidia locked it down to just rtx cards.

it is an old game, probably does not take that much umph to run.

edit:
it looks like nvidia specifically went full gamewerks, but raytracing this time.

Bit sad for nvidia card owners, single digit fps rendering on 3000 series .

Hopefully a mod will show up that reduces the number of light bounces down to something useful instead of silly.
 

eek2121

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I wonder if the game will run raytracing on AMD hardware? Or if Nvidia locked it down to just rtx cards.

it is an old game, probably does not take that much umph to run.

edit:
it looks like nvidia specifically went full gamewerks, but raytracing this time.

Bit sad for nvidia card owners, single digit fps rendering on 3000 series .

Hopefully a mod will show up that reduces the number of light bounces down to something useful instead of silly.

It's not like you can't play the game if you don't have an NVIDIA card. It's just that in order to use RT you need an NVIDIA card. I don't really see an issue with this. AMD is welcome to do the same thing, and Valve could have put a stop to it, but they did not since it will likely lead to more portal sales.

AMD has let NVIDIA get the upper hand by not working harder to improve RT.

I hope to try out Portal with RTX this afternoon. Looks pretty awesome. I bought portal at launch and haven't played it in a while, so the time is ripe for a play through.
 

maddie

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It's not like you can't play the game if you don't have an NVIDIA card. It's just that in order to use RT you need an NVIDIA card. I don't really see an issue with this. AMD is welcome to do the same thing, and Valve could have put a stop to it, but they did not since it will likely lead to more portal sales.

AMD has let NVIDIA get the upper hand by not working harder to improve RT.

I hope to try out Portal with RTX this afternoon. Looks pretty awesome. I bought portal at launch and haven't played it in a while, so the time is ripe for a play through.
This is a misleading argument. Because of the mindshare Nvidia has, AMD will always be chasing the latest thing. We can argue to the end of time, that AMD should work faster, harder, whatever, to reach parity with Nvidia, but all that will happen is that Nvidia will then change the game.

Maybe one day they will realize that you can never beat, or even match your opponent when they control not only the playing field, but also the rules of the game.

They do think creatively, engineering wise, they need to do creative strategic marketing also.
 

Kaluan

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Jan 4, 2022
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.
They do think creatively, engineering wise, they need to do creative strategic marketing also.
Well, that's how they won people over with (Ry)Zen.

I think DIRT5 was the first game released with it's RT implementation tailored for Radeon RAs. Terrible game tho, DIRT4 was much better.

Callisto Protocol is supposed to be this launch's "Radeon Killer App". If they can sort their stuff out before all RX 7900 day 1 reviews that is.
 

maddie

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Well, that's how they won people over with (Ry)Zen.

I think DIRT5 was the first game released with it's RT implementation tailored for Radeon RAs. Terrible game tho, DIRT4 was much better.

Callisto Protocol is supposed to be this launch's "Radeon Killer App". If they can sort their stuff out before all RX 7900 day 1 reviews that is.
Well, I'll disagree again. They won with pure perf/$. The original Ryzen was not the fastest core, but you got more of them. Low cost AM4 longevity added to their attractiveness. I would go so far as to say AMD marketing for Ryzen was an attachment, not a driver of sales.

We can see these effects almost in reverse with Zen 4 sales. One can almost argue that Zen 1,2,3, sold themselves.

I can't see this situation turning itself around within several years. The non-technical gamer only knows Nvidia, and that is a fact. AMD has to set up their own game with their own rules, and then has to market it as vital/desirable, to the community.
 
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Mopetar

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Probably just reuse of the bigger cooler. If it will fit in your case, it should be massive overkill, which is not a bad thing.

Does it still need the special mounting strap thing to deal with the extra weight? Lovelace isn't even particularly power hungry as to require that level of cooling, so there's a point where the massive overkill starts to have drawbacks.
 

eek2121

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This is a misleading argument. Because of the mindshare Nvidia has, AMD will always be chasing the latest thing. We can argue to the end of time, that AMD should work faster, harder, whatever, to reach parity with Nvidia, but all that will happen is that Nvidia will then change the game.

Maybe one day they will realize that you can never beat, or even match your opponent when they control not only the playing field, but also the rules of the game.

They do think creatively, engineering wise, they need to do creative strategic marketing also.

Disagree. You assume NVIDIA controls the rules of the game, but they do not. NVIDIA just happens to invest more in the gaming community. AMD could do the same, but they choose to do very little. Where is the innovation? NVIDIA introduced us to RT. NVIDIA introduced us to variable refresh rates. NVIDIA introduced us to high quality upscaling. What has AMD given us besides cloning the NVIDIA stuff?

That is their problem.
 

gdansk

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Feb 8, 2011
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Disagree. You assume NVIDIA controls the rules of the game, but they do not. NVIDIA just happens to invest more in the gaming community. AMD could do the same, but they choose to do very little. Where is the innovation? NVIDIA introduced us to RT. NVIDIA introduced us to variable refresh rates. NVIDIA introduced us to high quality upscaling. What has AMD given us besides cloning the NVIDIA stuff?

That is their problem.
Cloning is a bit overstated. AMD is forced to have a different approach. They have to be 'open'. There is almost 0 reason to add features because they will not be adopted by developers. There is maybe 15% of the market with AMD GPUs and only 10% of those who have the cool new GPU that can use the feature. What developer will implement that feature without a payoff? It only pays if the feature works on competitor's products too. A second player at RTG's inconsequential size does not get to add new features that require developer support. That is always a losing battle.

(Except on consoles - where Radeon did do some weird things like the Xbox 360's tessellator before Nvidia)
 
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maddie

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Disagree. You assume NVIDIA controls the rules of the game, but they do not. NVIDIA just happens to invest more in the gaming community. AMD could do the same, but they choose to do very little. Where is the innovation? NVIDIA introduced us to RT. NVIDIA introduced us to variable refresh rates. NVIDIA introduced us to high quality upscaling. What has AMD given us besides cloning the NVIDIA stuff?

That is their problem.

Cloning is a bit overstated. AMD is forced to have a different approach. They have to be 'open'. There is almost 0 reason to add features because they will not be adopted by developers. There is maybe 15% of the market with AMD GPUs and only 10% of those who have the cool new GPU that can use the feature. What developer will implement that feature without a payoff? It only pays if the feature works on competitor's products too. A second player at RTG's inconsequential size does not get to add new features that require developer support. That is always a losing battle.

(Except on consoles - where Radeon did do some weird things like the Xbox 360's tessellator before Nvidia)
Good example. The tessellation unit in the Radeon cards went nowhere until Nvidia implemented it, pushed it to outstrip Radeon and then claim innovation, as they insanely tessellated minor game elements to show how great they were.

Yep AMD does nothing while Nvidia is dah boss. I think this proves my point from the earlier post.
 

Saylick

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Sep 10, 2012
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Disagree. You assume NVIDIA controls the rules of the game, but they do not. NVIDIA just happens to invest more in the gaming community. AMD could do the same, but they choose to do very little. Where is the innovation? NVIDIA introduced us to RT. NVIDIA introduced us to variable refresh rates. NVIDIA introduced us to high quality upscaling. What has AMD given us besides cloning the NVIDIA stuff?

That is their problem.
Cloning is a bit overstated. AMD is forced to have a different approach. They have to be 'open'. There is almost 0 reason to add features because they will not be adopted by developers. There is maybe 15% of the market with AMD GPUs and only 10% of those who have the cool new GPU that can use the feature. What developer will implement that feature without a payoff? It only pays if the feature works on competitor's products too. A second player at RTG's inconsequential size does not get to add new features that require developer support. That is always a losing battle.

(Except on consoles - where Radeon did do some weird things like the Xbox 360's tessellator before Nvidia)
Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with Gdansk here... Nvidia's commanding market/mindshare lead offers them an advantage when it comes to market perception. It doesn't matter if AMD does something first because the userbase that would be able to take advantage of it is small so it hinders mass adoption, and then if Nvidia follow suit then everyone just kind of assumes they innovated first because that's when most people know about it. It's like how Apple wasn't the first to introduce wireless charging, always on displays, or even the punch-hole front camera, but a lot of people recognize Apple as the innovator here simply because they get more publicity.

Also, Nvidia investing more into the gaming community is less about helping the community and more about driving sales for future products. Nvidia's biggest competitor isn't AMD; it's themselves. With such a dominant position in the market, to sustain long-term revenue they need to convince the majority of their user base to upgrade as often as possible. If RT didn't exist, we'd all eventually settle for a GPU that does 4K comfortably and then Nvidia annual sales would fall because we'd hit the point of diminishing returns, not unlike how smartphones have gotten so competent and expensive that it's silly to upgrade on an annual basis. RT and DLSS were created to solve this exact long-term problem that Nvidia faces. Nvidia will continue to fund and sponsor game developers to use their proprietary technologies because it guarantees a market for their GPUs. Again, the goal here is to convince customers to buy future Nvidia GPUs.

Until AMD get a sizeable portion of the marketshare (>30%), they can only really just follow what Nvidia does and hope to do it better because they are not in the driver's seat. As history has shown, whenever AMD catch up to Nvidia in something, Nvidia marketing just comes up with something else to differentiate their product not just from the competition but also from their older GPUs, typically in the form of something exclusive to the upcoming generation of GPUs.
 

Leeea

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Apr 3, 2020
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Is the problem an excessive number of rays, like they did with tessellation?
I am speculating that.


The reason I speculate that is this is just like the tessellation thing. Last gen rtx3000 series cards flop hard also.


It feels like they just pushed some parameter up high enough so it will only work on 4000 series, and called it a day. Something meaningless like excessive tessellation that rtx4000 series does really well, but nothing else has because it just does not matter. Except this time instead of meaningless tessellation recursions it is likely ray trace bounces or something associated with that. Remember, rtx3000 could raytrace just fine last week, but this week they are failures? Same thing happened with last gen nvidia cards with the the tessellation.

It is just to convenient to not be history repeating itself.
 

Saylick

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Sep 10, 2012
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I am speculating that.


The reason I speculate that is this is just like the tessellation thing. Last gen rtx3000 series cards flop hard also.


It feels like they just pushed some parameter up high enough so it will only work on 4000 series, and called it a day. Something meaningless like excessive tessellation that rtx4000 series does really well, but nothing else has because it just does not matter. Except this time instead of meaningless tessellation recursions it is likely ray trace bounces or something associated with that. Remember, rtx3000 could raytrace just fine last week, but this week they are failures? Same thing happened with last gen nvidia cards with the the tessellation.

It is just to convenient to not be history repeating itself.

I wonder if the game will run raytracing on AMD hardware? Or if Nvidia locked it down to just rtx cards.

it is an old game, probably does not take that much umph to run.

edit:
it looks like nvidia specifically went full gamewerks, but raytracing this time.

Bit sad for nvidia card owners, single digit fps rendering on 3000 series .

Hopefully a mod will show up that reduces the number of light bounces down to something useful instead of silly.

In the case of that TPU review of Portal RTX, the reason why Ampere does so bad at 4K is because they're short on VRAM and thus performance suffers. If you look at every Nvidia GPU with single digit fps in their 4K test, each and every single one has less than 16GB of VRAM. Enabling DLSS means the internal resolution is lower so the VRAM usage drops too, which lets GPUs like the 3080 with its paltry 10 GB frame buffer stretch its legs.



 

Kaluan

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Jan 4, 2022
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IMHO AMD needs Intel's approach. Make it run on anything, but don't invest much on 3rd party QC/or plainly, just cripple your competition/cheat. Both of it's main competitors abuse the socks off of their historical standing (Intel) and/or mindshare (nVidia). AMD is slacking in this department, not that they haven't had a few sporadic goes at it themselves.

We all know how the game is played.
 

Leeea

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Apr 3, 2020
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Enabling DLSS means the internal resolution is lower so the VRAM usage drops too, which lets GPUs like the 3080 with its paltry 10 GB frame buffer stretch its legs.
Enable DLSS and enjoy 16 FPS experience on the rtx3080.


Well, 16 FPS is not single digit, so that is a massive improvement.


. . .
Even more interesting, on the 4000 series is that DLSS3 they are turning on? With its fake frames and latency issues? In a First person shooter game?


edit:
It appears that it is DLSS3! In a first person game!


It did not take long for journalists to abandon all pretension of integrity and jump onto nvidia's fake frame bandwagon. What a pathetic way to destroy TPUs reputation. Nvidia shills, nothing more.
 
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