Question Speculation: RDNA3 + CDNA2 Architectures Thread

[uzzi38]

Man I have been dying to make this one for a while now.

First rumours for RDNA3 are here so new thread time!

Just going to start off with this one for now: kopite7kimi on Twitter: "@VideoCardz Ah, I mean a simple mcm design with 10240 cores is not enough. Because the lift from RDNA2 to RDNA3 is much bigger than from RDNA1 to RDNA2. We should expect many big improvements in GFX11. 🤔" / Twitter

 

[Mopetar]

I agree but they did get a couple laptop N33 deals. That doesn't entirely justify the 7600 but perhaps AMD overestimated the demand for N33 laptop and needed a place to dump the dies.

The probably would be better off selling APUs when it comes down to it. Navi 33 is kind of in this uncomfortable position where it's not much better than an APU to justify the extra cost and it's not going to be nearly as good as a beefier laptop GPU like a mobile 4070 or Navi 32 laptop part.

The APU graphics are at the point where they'll run even AAA titles at or close to 60 FPS at low/medium settings in 1080p. Navi 33 isn't good enough for 1440p in many cases and just sits in such a pointless spot where anyone willing to spend the money for a discreet GPU in their notebook is better off spending $100-200 more to step up in performance.

If AMD had an APU with v-cache/infinity cache it would go a long way towards alleviating memory bottlenecks for 1080p gaming and would pretty much eliminate the need for a discreet GPU in that price range.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

The probably would be better off selling APUs when it comes down to it. Navi 33 is kind of in this uncomfortable position where it's not much better than an APU to justify the extra cost and it's not going to be nearly as good as a beefier laptop GPU like a mobile 4070 or Navi 32 laptop part.

The APU graphics are at the point where they'll run even AAA titles at or close to 60 FPS at low/medium settings in 1080p. Navi 33 isn't good enough for 1440p in many cases and just sits in such a pointless spot where anyone willing to spend the money for a discreet GPU in their notebook is better off spending $100-200 more to step up in performance.

1.) N33 is a lot faster than 780M, and I am talking only about the cutdown 7600S.
We are talking about >3x higher FPS in demanding games at Full HD and High/ultra (Hogwarts, F1 22, Far Cry 6 for example). 7600S, Ryzen Z1 Extreme

2.) The cheapest Phoenix so far is Asus ROG Ally costing €799. You can be pretty sure that a Phoenix laptop will cost a lot more than €799, the cheapest 6800HS costs €1039 in my country.
Laptop with 7940HS + 7600S costs €1499. That's not even 2x higher price for >3x performance, so FPS/€ is actually better and It justifies extra cost.

3.) I find paying at least €799 for a laptop(handheld) which isn't even capable of 40FPS in demanding titles like Cyberpunk or Hogwarts at Full HD with low settings a waste of money. If you want to play newer games, then really a dGPU is the only way.

4.) It's true that for $100-200 you can get a RTX 4070 laptop, which is noticeably faster, but It's also not so great with only 8GB Vram.

7600S is not the best deal compared to other laptop GPUs, but It's still a better value than an IGP.

 

[eek2121]

1.) N33 is a lot faster than 780M, and I am talking only about the cutdown 7600S.
We are talking about >3x higher FPS in demanding games at Full HD and High/ultra (Hogwarts, F1 22, Far Cry 6 for example). 7600S, Ryzen Z1 Extreme

2.) The cheapest Phoenix so far is Asus ROG Ally costing €799. You can be pretty sure that a Phoenix laptop will cost a lot more than €799, the cheapest 6800HS costs €1039 in my country.
Laptop with 7940HS + 7600S costs €1499. That's not even 2x higher price for >3x performance, so FPS/€ is actually better and It justifies extra cost.

3.) I find paying at least €799 for a laptop(handheld) which isn't even capable of 40FPS in demanding titles like Cyberpunk or Hogwarts at Full HD with low settings a waste of money. If you want to play newer games, then really a dGPU is the only way.

4.) It's true that for $100-200 you can get a RTX 4070 laptop, which is noticeably faster, but It's also not so great with only 8GB Vram.

7600S is not the best deal compared to other laptop GPUs, but It's still a better value than an IGP.

Did something change with the S series? Last gen they targeted high performance/low power. That is, the 7600M will be faster than the 7600S because the 7600M has a higher power limit.

The 7600S appears (on paper) to perform close to the 6700S while having a power limit of 75W. Unsure what the issue is?

I haven’t seen the two compared, admittedly, but the specs look similar and RDNA does have higher IPC, so it should edge our the 6700S, which is a generational improvement.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

Did something change with the S series? Last gen they targeted high performance/low power. That is, the 7600M will be faster than the 7600S because the 7600M has a higher power limit.

The 7600S appears (on paper) to perform close to the 6700S while having a power limit of 75W. Unsure what the issue is?

I haven’t seen the two compared, admittedly, but the specs look similar and RDNA does have higher IPC, so it should edge our the 6700S, which is a generational improvement.

Nothing changed. Series S have lower TDP which means lower boost clocks and lower performance.
If you want a new laptop, then choose a GPU with more than 8GB Vram, so your only options are RTX 4080 and RTX 4090 or N32 when It's finally released.

 

[jpiniero]

AMD Germany lists Radeon RX 7600 XT graphics card - VideoCardz.com

AMD Germany mistakenly lists an unreleased graphics card Radeon RX 7600 with XT can already be found on the AMD website, sort of. It appears that there may have been a typo on the AMD Germany website, where the title “RX 7600 XT” was spotted on the RX 7600 non-XT product page. This seems to […]

videocardz.com

AMD might really be serious about the 7600 XT? We shall see...

Given that the 7600 is the full configuration it'd either have to be something that just has faster memory & clocks or the clamshell.

 

[burninatortech4]

AMD Germany lists Radeon RX 7600 XT graphics card - VideoCardz.com

AMD Germany mistakenly lists an unreleased graphics card Radeon RX 7600 with XT can already be found on the AMD website, sort of. It appears that there may have been a typo on the AMD Germany website, where the title “RX 7600 XT” was spotted on the RX 7600 non-XT product page. This seems to […]

videocardz.com

AMD might really be serious about the 7600 XT? We shall see...

Given that the 7600 is the full configuration it'd either have to be something that just has faster memory & clocks or the clamshell.

There is almost certainly going to be a 16GB version of the 7600. The 7600 XT is the only name that makes sense.

 

[jpiniero]

There is almost certainly going to be a 16GB version of the 7600. The 7600 XT is the only name that makes sense.

I wouldn't say definitely, unless they somehow think it will sell at $350+. Maybe it could work if AMD is realistic about sales volume.

 

[SteinFG]

7600 is barely faster than 6650 XT, why would it need 16GB? Bandwidth doesn't change, so 1080p performance will be the same, and 1440p will only be improved in newest games on max settings.

edit: if 8GB ov VRAM really costs less than $30 as some news are telling, they can launch it at 300-330 and be like a better 3060 in every way. weird placement

 

[Heartbreaker]

There is almost certainly going to be a 16GB version of the 7600. The 7600 XT is the only name that makes sense.

As the story notes, it could just be a typo on the page.

I'm thinking they might just skip 7600 XT this time, and go straight to N32 7700 with 10-12 GB.

 

[jpiniero]

I suppose they could do 96-bit clamshell, so 12 GB.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I suppose they could do 96-bit clamshell, so 12 GB.

N32, would be 192 bits for 12GB.

It would makes sense to use N33 and shrink the bus for 12GB. That would make performance worse.

 

[jpiniero]

It would makes sense to use N33 and shrink the bus for 12GB. That would make performance worse.

Not if they used faster memory.

 

[coercitiv]

Not if they used faster memory.

The 24Gbps GDDR6 that not even Nvidia used in their 4060 Ti although it would have been a far better fit for the price point?

Even if N33 somehow has more gasoline in the tank to power a 7600 XT (through binning and sheer force of will), it would need more bandwidth than 7600, not an equal value. The 128 bit interface is a must, after which faster memory is preferable. Personally I doubt a plan for 7600XT can use N33, unless they're making another meme product in which case... sure I guess!

 

[Timorous]

The 24Gbps GDDR6 that not even Nvidia used in their 4060 Ti although it would have been a far better fit for the price point?

Even if N33 somehow has more gasoline in the tank to power a 7600 XT (through binning and sheer force of will), it would need more bandwidth than 7600, not an equal value. The 128 bit interface is a must, after which faster memory is preferable. Personally I doubt a plan for 7600XT can use N33, unless they're making another meme product in which case... sure I guess!

The only case I see for a 7600XT is to use N32 and 3 MCDs.

A 12GB part with 40 CUs or there abouts (so probably 2 SEs active out of the 3 on N32) is the sort of config I would expect. Such a part could probably match the 6700XT in performance at lower power so would make an ideal 7600XT. The question would be price and would AMD be willing to sell N32 at the sort of price that is suitable for a 7600XT. If not they might make this kind of spec a vanilla 7700 and charge a bit more for it.

Options to me would be that spec with 6700XT performance or there abouts for around $350 as a 7600XT. Would probably do well vs the 4060Ti, especially in cases where the 8GB vram is too little. The other option would be a vanilla 7700 with slightly higher clocks to match or slightly exceed the 6750XT for around $400. Offer 50% more vram at the same price as the 4060Ti with slightly better performance.

The former would be a better deal vs current pricing of 6700XT / 6750XT parts and the latter would look good vs the 4060Ti but would be bad overall so AMD will probably do the latter.

 

[beginner99]

The only case I see for a 7600XT is to use N32 and 3 MCDs.

Not going to happen. So N32 should cover 7800 all the way down to a 7600 XT?
it also requires that 7800 XT doesn't exist or is a cut of N31. But it's not clear how much faster an N31 cut is vs a full N32.

N33 is just really bad and there is a big gap between it and N32. Makes me think AMD new RDNA3 (N32, N31) performance (clocks, power) already early-on not to be great or else the gap would be even bigger if N32 could consistently clock to the initially rumored > 3 ghz.

 

[Timorous]

Not going to happen. So N32 should cover 7800 all the way down to a 7600 XT?
it also requires that 7800 XT doesn't exist or is a cut of N31. But it's not clear how much faster an N31 cut is vs a full N32.

N33 is just really bad and there is a big gap between it and N32. Makes me think AMD new RDNA3 (N32, N31) performance (clocks, power) already early-on not to be great or else the gap would be even bigger if N32 could consistently clock to the initially rumored > 3 ghz.

I see it like this.

7800XT - N31. The die will depend on targeted performance. They could do a 5600XT style thing and make it the same core config as the 7900XT but with less VRAM, less bandwidth and lower clocks to create the delta. This would fit in that performance gap between the 6950XT and the 7900XT so would make for a worthy gen on gen gain over the 6800XT IMO. Other option is the same part used in the W7800 Pro. Issue with this IMO is that they will need to cut perfectly good dies to have reasonable volume so it may be better to just use the same die as the 7900XT and have better performance. If N31 does fit on the N32 package then with the board cost savings of N32 boards it might very well net out to be the same sort of profit as well so AMD won't mind selling those cut parts as 7800XT or 7900XT. $650 is about the max for the 84CU config and $600 probably the max for the 70CU config.

7800 - Full N32 with 6800XT - 6900XT tier performance. Expect drop off at 4K to be similar to 6800 due to only being 3SEs rather than the 5 or 6SEs the 7800XT will have. $550 imo at most with 4070 beating performance, especially at 4K where drop off won't be as hard.

7700XT - Cut N32. Could be 12GB but with the 4060Ti 16GB being a thing I think going 16GB would be better. Performance should be a bit above 6800 level and giving 16GB makes it more viable for 4K long term. $480 would undercut the 4060Ti 16GB and give better performance with potentially 4070 matching perf at 4K.

7700/7600XT - 2SE N32. Only one will exist, which one depends on performance IMO. If performance is clearly a step above the 4060Ti then give it 16GB call it a 7700 and sell it for $420 ish. If performance is more like on par with the 4060Ti then give it 12GB call it a 7600XT and sell it for around $350.

Unfortunately for AMD people put a lot of value in the NV feature set so AMD need to have both lower or similar pricing, better performance and often more VRAM at each tier to be considered a worthy competitor and even then it won't always work with the 3050 out selling the 6600 and the 3070 out selling the 6800.

 

[jpiniero]

Even if N33 somehow has more gasoline in the tank to power a 7600 XT (through binning and sheer force of will), it would need more bandwidth than 7600, not an equal value. The 128 bit interface is a must, after which faster memory is preferable. Personally I doubt a plan for 7600XT can use N33, unless they're making another meme product in which case... sure I guess!

The idea is that some marketing drone at AMD truly believes that the bad 7600 sales is because of the Anti-8 GB marketing. Thus more VRAM.

I am wondering if it could also be possible to do a partial clamshell with 2 controllers getting 2 chips and 2 getting only one.

 

[Heartbreaker]

The idea is that some marketing drone at AMD truly believes that the bad 7600 sales is because of the Anti-8 GB marketing. Thus more VRAM.

I am wondering if it could also be possible to do a partial clamshell with 2 controllers getting 2 chips and 2 getting only one.

Sure, because two tier memory worked out so well for them on the GTX 970.

 

[Timorous]

Sure, because two tier memory worked out so well for them on the GTX 970.

There was nothing wrong with the GTX 970. The issue was that the information was not disclosed in the reviews because Nvidia didn't tell anybody. Ultimately though the card stood on the merits of its performance and price which was excellent at the time.

The idea is that some marketing drone at AMD truly believes that the bad 7600 sales is because of the Anti-8 GB marketing. Thus more VRAM.

I am wondering if it could also be possible to do a partial clamshell with 2 controllers getting 2 chips and 2 getting only one.

Yes it can be done and the 660Ti had that config. 660Ti Review

 

[Heartbreaker]

Yes it can be done and the 660Ti had that config. 660Ti Review

That it hasn't been done since, points to serious reluctance to do it again. RTX 3060 would have been a card that they probably would have preferred to ship as 8GB which they could have done with 2GB on 2 channels and 1GB on the other 4 channels, but that would created uneven memory speeds with the final 2 GB operating in only 2 channel mode so significantly slower.

 

[Mopetar]

Clamshell is arguably worse from the AIB perspective. Needs a different board and probably a new and more complex cooling system. Using higher capacity memory chips just means paying the extra price per chip.

Adding an extra 8 GB to either a 7600 or a 4060 isn't going to change much. They won't magically perform better, but they just won't fall off as hard in cases where the game needs a little bit more than 8 GB or the weak bus can't swap in new textures fast enough.

 

[RnR_au]

Did he pick the worst games for AMD?

 

[SteinFG]

Did he pick the worst games for AMD?

Yes, he picked CPU bound games and settings to show that 7900 doesn't lower power consumption when it's not the bottleneck. In GPU bound settings/games there's a smaller gap.

 

[gdansk]

It is a real problem however. N31 is worse than N21 in the respect. A regression due to chiplet design I guess? Cool and quiet mode hardly works.

Seems N31 owners are beta testers who paid >$700 for the privilege.

 

[adroc_thurston]

A regression due to chiplet design I guess?

No, the USRs cost basically nothing, they're like 0.2pJ/b.
All RDOA3 (N5) issues are down to core WGP implementation.

Seems N31 owners are beta testers who paid >$700 for the privilege.

They bought a rather buggy piece of A0 so that's to be expected.