Question Speculation: RDNA3 + CDNA2 Architectures Thread

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uzzi38

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PJVol

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I see 2 potential problems even If N32 can sustain 3GHz
Even this seems overly optimistic to me, let alone 3ghz+, unless they did a full respin and tweaked the design in a way similar to what MLID was hinted at regarding the RT cores on N33.

If it's mainly a driver side issue from AMD then expect RDNA 3 to be more fine wine since the untapped potential is there.
From chipsandcheese "Microbenchmarking AMD’s RDNA 3 Graphics Architecture":
I’m guessing RDNA 3’s dual issue mode will have limited impact. It relies heavily on the compiler to find VOPD possibilities, and compilers are frustratingly stupid at seeing very simple optimizations...
... testing through OpenCL is difficult because we’re relying on the compiler to find dual issue opportunities. We only see convincing dual issue behavior with FP32 adds, where the compiler emitted v_dual_add_f32 instructions. The mixed INT32 and FP32 addition test saw some benefit because the FP32 adds were dual issued, but could not generate VOPD instructions for INT32 due to a lack of VOPD instructions for INT32 operations. Fused multiply add, which is used to calculate a GPU’s headline TFLOPs number, saw very few dual issue instructions emitted.
 
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Timorous

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Oct 27, 2008
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I see 2 potential problems even If N32 can sustain 3GHz.
1.) How much performance increase we will see from 33% higher clocks.
2.) How much power would be needed for that. RX 6500XT showed us how inefficient It can be.

For 1)
Assuming scaling is like it is on N31 about 30% give or take if there is enough memory bandwidth. Going from a stock XTX to an OC'd XTX (2.61Ghz to 2.93Ghz + memory OC) gets you a 16% performance increase for that 12% clock speed increase + 10% bandwidth increase.



For 2)
Depends on the v/f curve. With the same or similar curve to N31, lots and lots but if N32 goes someway to improving the v/f curve then probably sub 300W.

The fact we see linear-ish performance gains from increasing clocks suggests to me AMD intended for N31 to clock higher than it does and they simply couldn't get the v/f curve where they needed to do that within a reasonable power envelope.
 
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Timorous

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Even this seems overly optimistic to me, let alone 3ghz+, unless they did a full respin and tweaked the design in a way similar to what MLID was hinted at regarding the RT cores on N33.

N22 can already do 2.7Ghz sustained and N31 manages 2.7Ghz as well with AIB cards. I don't think it is too much to think the smaller N32 is likely to be able to clock higher than N31 even without any fixes. If it does have an improved V/f curve then they can even do it at decent power levels.
 

TESKATLIPOKA

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Even this seems overly optimistic to me, let alone 3ghz+, unless they did a full respin and tweaked the design in a way similar to what MLID was hinted at regarding the RT cores on N33.
That's why I said even If.

For 1)
Assuming scaling is like it is on N31 about 30% give or take if there is enough memory bandwidth. Going from a stock XTX to an OC'd XTX (2.61Ghz to 2.93Ghz + memory OC) gets you a 16% performance increase for that 12% clock speed increase + 10% bandwidth increase.



For 2)
Depends on the v/f curve. With the same or similar curve to N31, lots and lots but if N32 goes someway to improving the v/f curve then probably sub 300W.

The fact we see linear-ish performance gains from increasing clocks suggests to me AMD intended for N31 to clock higher than it does and they simply couldn't get the v/f curve where they needed to do that within a reasonable power envelope.
I don't know how you got 2.61GHz for the stock XTX during 3DMark.
It's pretty suspicious that a 12% increase in clockspeed results in 16% increase in performance when BW increased by only 10%.


If you compare max OC RX 7900 XTX vs RX 7900 XTX Taichi then by increasing clockspeed by 8% you gain only 4.4% when the BW is the same.
This would mean 22gbps is enough for ~2835MHz. Now, If I divide this clockspeed with the increase in performance, I end up with 2835/1.16= 2444 MHz In case the scaling is linear.

edit: deleted an unfinished sentence.
 
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PJVol

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May 25, 2020
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they simply couldn't get the v/f curve where they needed to do that within a reasonable power envelope.
The V/F curve itself doesn't seem to be an issue, rather Cac does.
AFAIK the curve could be tweaked a bit here and there to gain 1-2% efficiency as with the 6900>6950XT, but it's still mostly determined by combinational logic devices' Vth.
 
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Timorous

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Oct 27, 2008
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That's why I said even If.
It's true, that RDNA2 low and mid-range GPUs had a significant

I don't know how you got 2.61GHz for the stock XTX during 3DMark.
It's pretty suspicious that a 12% increase in clockspeed results in 16% increase in performance when BW increased by only 10%.

View attachment 80758
If you compare max OC RX 7900 XTX vs RX 7900 XTX Taichi then by increasing clockspeed by 8% you gain only 4.4% when the BW is the same.
This would mean 22gbps is enough for ~2835MHz. Now, If I divide this clockspeed with the increase in performance, I end up with 2835/1.16= 2444 MHz In case the scaling is linear.

The 2.61 comes from the efficiency page where he gives you the average clock achieved across all the titles. Not ideal but what we have. Entirely possible the stock XTX is clocking lower than this in 3DMark. Alternatively it is possible the 94FPS result for the stock XTX is with an older driver or some other system level difference. It depends if he retests or not.

At 2.8Ghz ram the 2795 Taichi vs the 2853 TUF shows linear scaling. 2.1% clockspeed increase vs a 2.2% performance increase.
Even the 2921 Merc is getting a 1.5% performance increase from a 2.4% clockspeed increase and a 1% bandwidth regression.
Also if you compare the Merc to the Taichi white you get a 0.9% performance increase from a 1.1% bandwidth increase and a 0.5% clock speed regression.

Also based on the 2.61Ghz average for the stock XTX vs the 2.73Ghz average for the Taichi white that is a 4.6% clockspeed increase and the 4K performance ranking has the Taichi White 4.2% faster than the stock XTX.

Even the 7900XT to 7900XTX is pretty linear in that table if you factor in the extra bandwidth the XTX gets.

So it does look like RDNA3 scales in a pretty linear fashion provided there is enough bandwidth upto what seems like the 3Ghz region at minimum.

If we do some rough math then 3Ghz sustained N32 would have a 12% clockspeed advantage over 7900XT but only 71% of the shaders netting out to around 80% of the performance. OTOH a 70CU N31 with 2.69Ghz sustained like the 7900XT manages would have equal clocks and 81.4% of the shaders.

80% of 7900XT is around 6900XT tier performance. So I still stand by my thinking that if N32 can clock to 3Ghz + at a sane power envelope AMD will make that the 7800XT. If they cannot get it there they will probably make the 70CU N31 the 7800XT. Either way you are looking at 6900XT to 6950XT performance at 4K by the looks of it.

Now I am aware this is over simplified because with 3SE vs 6SEs in the 7900XT there is going to be a substantial ROP deficit which might make scaling to 4K worse. That is where the 5SE 70CU N31 design would be better because it won't have the same ROP deficit making it a better 4K card even with equal VRAM and bandwidth.
 

jpiniero

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Heartbreaker

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7600 about 5-6% faster than the 66500 XT in 3dmark tests.

Ouch.
 
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Tup3x

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7600 about 5-6% faster than the 66500 XT in 3dmark tests.
By the way, my RTX 3060 Ti gets 12800-13000 points in Time Spy (GPU score). 13395 is rather disappointing for RTX 4060 Ti.
 
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insertcarehere

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Jan 17, 2013
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7600 about 5-6% faster than the 66500 XT in 3dmark tests.
It is oh so very tempting to quote the posters on this thread, who, even after Navi 31 came out, insisted that N33 can match N22 or even surpass it in performance...
 

TESKATLIPOKA

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It is oh so very tempting to quote the posters on this thread, who, even after Navi 31 came out, insisted that N33 can match N22 or even surpass it in performance...
Then do so, If It will make you feel better.

Based on that box in the picture RX 7600 should have 32CU. Won't they release a RX 7600Xt or what? Or only higher clocks will be the difference?
I think AMD made a mistake by using only 6nm process instead of a better one, but that's not the only problem with N33, the other is that dual-issue which didn't help that much in N31 is a simpler version in N33 or Phoenix and the last problem is barely higher clocks.
 
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Timorous

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Oct 27, 2008
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It is oh so very tempting to quote the posters on this thread, who, even after Navi 31 came out, insisted that N33 can match N22 or even surpass it in performance...

Do it.

Most posts would have had caveats and laid out specific assumptions.

Also just because something can happen based on certain assumptions does not mean it will if those assumptions are wrong, like clockspeed or IPC uplift and whatnot.



Finally as you can see from the above the 6700 10GB is only 9% faster than the 6650XT so top N33 matching that is about the minimum bar and if it only just manages it would explain why it is a 7600 rather than a 7600XT.
 

Ajay

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Jan 8, 2001
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And somewhere in Taiwan, AMD engineers are using a 3 kilo heat sink to get N32 clocks high enough to slot beneath the 7900 XT .

I'm annoyed because I’d like a $600/16GB card from *this* generation sometime this year. NV rathers that we not keep our cards for more than 2 years so…it’s AMD or bust /rant
 

insertcarehere

Senior member
Jan 17, 2013
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Do it.

Most posts would have had caveats and laid out specific assumptions.

Also just because something can happen based on certain assumptions does not mean it will if those assumptions are wrong, like clockspeed or IPC uplift and whatnot.



Finally as you can see from the above the 6700 10GB is only 9% faster than the 6650XT so top N33 matching that is about the minimum bar and if it only just manages it would explain why it is a 7600 rather than a 7600XT.

This was you a month ago talking about N33, you certainly weren't talking about matching a binned 6700 variant as matching N22, you were projecting that full-fat N33 will be on a similar performance level as full-fat N22, and unless I am missing something there doesn't seem to be much in the way of any caveats or explicit assumptions..

An OCd 6650XT is about 10% ahead of the stock 6650XT. Allow that to represent the likely higher core clock and faster VRAM of a 7600XT and then factor in the approx 9% IPC increase and you get a 7600XT that is about 20% faster than a stock 6650XT and at 1440p that would be around 6700XT performance on average.
 
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GodisanAtheist

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What a cursed gen.

AMD has jebaited before and they will jebait again, if they have any good sense here.

Float $299 price tag, surprise everyone with $249 or even better $229 or something for the 7600 8gb and they'd have a stew going.

Drop a clamshell 16gb in at $299 to go against NV's 8gb.

Was really hoping the 7600 would depress pricing on used 6700 inventory and down, but it can't really do that at $299. I need the 7600 to work for me DAAMIT.
 

Timorous

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Oct 27, 2008
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This was you a month ago talking about N33, you certainly weren't talking about matching a binned 6700 variant as matching N22, you were projecting that full-fat N33 will be on a similar performance level as full-fat N22, and unless I am missing something there doesn't seem to be much in the way of any caveats or explicit assumptions..

And you think being faster than an OCd N23 by 10% is/was some kind of obviously ludicrous thought.

If the 7600 manages just OCd 6650XT performance and there is no clockspeed headroom then that is frankly a disaster performance uplift and would be better served being called a 7500XT.

Edit. I also clearly call out the assumptions to get to that gain. Assumptions that with pre release rumours can easily be wrong.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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What a cursed gen.

AMD has jebaited before and they will jebait again, if they have any good sense here.

If anything, nVidia announcing the 4060's MSRP being $299 now (instead of in July) was clearly aimed at screwing over the 7600. Fully knowing that even an MSRP of $299 was not going to thrill AMD. Whatever the price was going to be, it's clearly going to be less than that.
 
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maddie

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If anything, nVidia announcing the 4060's MSRP being $299 now (instead of in July) was clearly aimed at screwing over the 7600. Fully knowing that even an MSRP of $299 was not going to thrill AMD. Whatever the price was going to be, it's clearly going to be less than that.
This is some strange reasoning here, as usual. Based on your perpetual cost statements, a reasonable person would expect a $299 price for 4060 as even more "self screwing over" on Nvidia with their higher price expectations.The phrase cutting of one's own nose to spite one's face, comes to mind.

7600 = (203) 6nm
4060 = (156) 4nm

Are you saying that the 4060 card is as cheap to produce as the 7600? If yes, this contradicts everything you have claimed for wafer prices till now. If no, then why are < $299 prices such a catastrophe for AMD?
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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Are you saying that the 4060 card is as cheap to produce as the 7600?

Actually no. The 4060 should be more actually. But it should be very close.

If no, then why are < $299 prices such a catastrophe for AMD?

It's gonna have to be $250 I think. That 50 bucks is a huge deal.

As for the 4060, we don't know how $299 the $299 MSRP really is. They could easily be pulling that stunt where it'd be impossible for an AIB to make any profit at the MSRP like EVGA has claimed nVidia has done in the past. AMD can't really do that.
 
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