Speculation: Ryzen 3000 series

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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
This is when the passionate talented CEO can make a huge difference. Huang at Nvidia is exactly like this and I think Lisa Su is also.

Strangely enough, roles have reversed. Grove at Intel was of that caliber, while Ruiz at AMD was the opposite.

It's like Royal rule. When you have a great king, they can cut through the bureaucracy and speedily implement changes. Of course the disastrous exact opposite can happen with a poor ruler. If she stays, expect more of the same leadership. By the way, money while necessary for R&D is way overrated as the sole or even main ingredient. An adequately funded, small, talented team can do previously unimagined wonders. I've seen it happen in other fields. Genius & passion goes a very long way.

Intel is like what IBM became. The perfect corporate partner, attractively boringly predictable for the fortune 500 CEOs and hedge fund investors. I'm not a young person, but it's obvious that a lot of legacy CEO types even though they try to speak the language, are clueless to the speed of modern ideas & innovation.
Hector was a bit of a mug. But he made by far the two most important decisions in amd history. The acquisition of ati and spin off of gf. In hindsight it's pretty clear amd wouldn't be here today without the spinoff and I doubt amd would be here without the ati acquisition due to the nessecity for the console deals.
He was strategic and visionary like something we havnt seen since and before imo.
That said he obviously have not the competence to drive forward the core business like Lisa. He left amd without a good CEO to take over and he was a crook.

If the game numbers from zen 2 is accurate it means the latency is under control. Rome will be extremely popular. In the years forward amd will pour money into tsmc. Apple nv whoever. It will be more and more clear why the gf spinoff was right and Intel will have a far more difficult time ahead than people imagine. This is far far far worse than p4 time. The market dynamics of gf spinoff and separate io core will lead us somewhere it's even difficult to imagine.
 

RaV666

Member
Jan 26, 2004
76
34
91
Hector was a bit of a mug. But he made by far the two most important decisions in amd history. The acquisition of ati and spin off of gf. In hindsight it's pretty clear amd wouldn't be here today without the spinoff and I doubt amd would be here without the ati acquisition due to the nessecity for the console deals.
He was strategic and visionary like something we havnt seen since and before imo.
That said he obviously have not the competence to drive forward the core business like Lisa. He left amd without a good CEO to take over and he was a crook.

If the game numbers from zen 2 is accurate it means the latency is under control. Rome will be extremely popular. In the years forward amd will pour money into tsmc. Apple nv whoever. It will be more and more clear why the gf spinoff was right and Intel will have a far more difficult time ahead than people imagine. This is far far far worse than p4 time. The market dynamics of gf spinoff and separate io core will lead us somewhere it's even difficult to imagine.

Dont know dude, it looked like he was trying to put the company to the ground and profit off of it.
He pretty much wasted all the amd got during athlon days.
 

PPB

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,118
168
106
Thanks. So it's only 11W. Passive heatsinks, unobstructed by board armor, can handle 11W easily.
By my testing no, not that easily.

Using a J5005 nuc with a z97x gaming 7 alu chipset as a nuc heatsink (stripped it the awful gigabyte red logo to make the surface better exposed to air renovation) and the soc pulls sustained 13.5w on stress testing which makes the heatsink hover at 90-95 and this is on open air at 18°c ambient. After several minutes temperature may rise to 100's. I gather this x570 chipset has a bigger surface area than such a tiny nuc, but more surface area can help so much to delay the eventual heatening of such small heatsinks.

11 w is not insignificant and the amount of heatsink surface needed for passively cool it is not trivial either. Passive cooling is also super sensible to power consumption bursts, which may be the case for the x570 under hwavy nvme raid operation. This is why a fan is a sensible choice if you are able to control its rpm and if you are able to monitor chipset temperatures, both trivial tasks. Delta temperature between peak power and idle may be so much that even bump solder points may affect negatively mtbf, so a semi active cooling system may control it much better by keeping the minimum idle temps just like passive heatsinks, but controling peak power cases wont deviate more than 20° from idle cases so thermal cycling is reduced significantly.

Most people recall the nforce era. Guys, fan technogy has improved in the last 10 years quite a bit, specially on tiny fans. You could have a noiseblocker 40mm fan and barely notice its noise. Back then all those fans were bottom of the barrel designs that didnt even have adjustable rpm. We even now have ball bearing fans on 15mm height fans. We have come a long way.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
136
Hector was a bit of a mug. But he made by far the two most important decisions in amd history. The acquisition of ati and spin off of gf. In hindsight it's pretty clear amd wouldn't be here today without the spinoff and I doubt amd would be here without the ati acquisition due to the nessecity for the console deals.
He was strategic and visionary like something we havnt seen since and before imo.
That said he obviously have not the competence to drive forward the core business like Lisa. He left amd without a good CEO to take over and he was a crook.

If the game numbers from zen 2 is accurate it means the latency is under control. Rome will be extremely popular. In the years forward amd will pour money into tsmc. Apple nv whoever. It will be more and more clear why the gf spinoff was right and Intel will have a far more difficult time ahead than people imagine. This is far far far worse than p4 time. The market dynamics of gf spinoff and separate io core will lead us somewhere it's even difficult to imagine.

The other significant decision he made was to bring lawsuits against intel for violating anti-competition laws. Without that, intel would very likely have continued its consumer and market abuse and completely locked AMD out of the market to the point where developing Zen would not have been an option.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
The other significant decision he made was to bring lawsuits against intel for violating anti-competition laws. Without that, intel would very likely have continued its consumer and market abuse and completely locked AMD out of the market to the point where developing Zen would not have been an option.
Yes. But that was a pretty straightforward decision anyone could make as Intel just flat out bribed eg Dell not to sell opterons. It's not a result of his vision or competences.

What happened later though as a result of the settlement was that amd was allowed to use others than gf to produce their cpu. Amd used that to make zakate the first very successful apu vs the disastrous bd. It was only because Intel was caught stealing they allowed that. It's kind of ironic today...
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Dont know dude, it looked like he was trying to put the company to the ground and profit off of it.
He pretty much wasted all the amd got during athlon days.
What about you read what I write dude before talking with your but. Seriously are you at sleep or watching porn?. This is to low effort. Get some argument pls.

Set The Controls for the Heart of the Infraction.

There are no personal attacks allowed in the tech
areas. C'mon, you know this.

AT Mod Usandthem
 
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bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
The arrogance of the company is what got them in the predicament in the 1st place. Haven't they already thrown billions of dollars at the issue and haven't come up with a solution to get over their hurdles?

AMD used to be the kid that was wimpy and bullied, got their lunch money taken away before school. They've since worked out, got ripped, learned the martial arts, and are ready to kick some arse! They want their lunch money back!

That's pretty funny. Too bad that I don't need a new rig now, I think my last AMD cpu was an Athlon 64 FX.
 

bryanW1995

Lifer
May 22, 2007
11,144
32
91
I would argue the botching started in 2009, when they turned down Apple for making iPhone chips. All those many billions that went to foundries like Samsung and now TSMC could have been Intel's instead. The foundries would still be behind, and Intel would have had more R&D money. Though they likely would have stagnated anyway, because when you have a lead you milk it. At least in Intel's world.

I'm no intel fanboy, but it's ridiculous to imply that nobody else does this.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,804
11,157
136
By my testing no, not that easily.

Kinda hard to tell what that heatsink looks like with the red logo on it. It just looks like a flat object with no particular heat dissipation properties at all.

In any case, a decent copper heatsink with about the same fin area as a VRM heatsink should do.

You could have a noiseblocker 40mm fan and barely notice its noise. Back then all those fans were bottom of the barrel designs that didnt even have adjustable rpm. We even now have ball bearing fans on 15mm height fans. We have come a long way.

As long as they don't fail, I don't particularly mind. It just seems like they're being NASA using special pens designed to write in space when they could just use grease pencils instead (like the Soviets).
 

RaV666

Member
Jan 26, 2004
76
34
91
What about you read what I write dude before talking with your but. Seriously are you at sleep or watching porn?. This is to low effort. Get some argument pls.

Set The Controls for the Heart of the Infraction.

There are no personal attacks allowed in the tech
areas. C'mon, you know this.


AT Mod Usandthem

I read what you wrote, its just that i dont agree with it. From my point of view it seems like he was trying to run the company into the ground, which he ALMOST succeeded.It was all his decisions that led the company to the fiasco that got them from athlon success to the bulldozer failure.
It was him who also got caught insider trading.
 
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SK10H

Member
Jun 18, 2015
117
50
101
Either that or he's flat out incompetent.
Intel was interested in buying ATi at the time, but he decided to outbid them. ATi's profit for the next few quarters were a disaster. The price would be much lower if AMD/Intel were patient.

So not that visionary when you know your biggest competitor want it as well.
I read what you wrote, its just that i dont agree with it. From my point of view it seems like he was trying to run the company into the ground, which he ALMOST succeeded.It was all his decisions that led the company to the fiasco that got them from athlon success to the bulldozer failure.
It was him who also got caught insider trading.
 

PotatoWithEarsOnSide

Senior member
Feb 23, 2017
664
701
106
Just compared it to the 3600 bench and it is worse than the first of those 2 benches, including the 3.75GHz average turbo one.
Considering this is reporting as an X370 with 3600MHz RAM, it is either reporting incorrectly or older boards provide crap support for Zen 2.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
He was strategic and visionary like something we havnt seen since and before imo.

Selling of the fabs wasn't visionary, it was the only way to not go bankrupt right then and there. And they got there because he cut spending in R&D, also for said fabs and the overpriced purchase of ATI. While selling the fabs he also was responsible for the terrible WSA which crippled AMD up to today. Bad at negotiating? Overpaied for ATI (bad deal) and then the WSA (bad deal).
 

PPB

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,118
168
106
It is not

Kinda hard to tell what that heatsink looks like with the red logo on it. It just looks like a flat object with no particular heat dissipation properties at all.

In any case, a decent copper heatsink with about the same fin area as a VRM heatsink should do.



As long as they don't fail, I don't particularly mind. It just seems like they're being NASA using special pens designed to write in space when they could just use grease pencils instead (like the Soviets).

This looks like a flat object with no heat dissipation properties at all to you?

Your argument would look better if it didnt require to "flat" deny thermophysics for it to work.


Just to be clear, Intel states 4.1w tdp for the Z97 chipset. Even with the red gigabyte logo cover, does it seem like a small heatsink for dissipating that heat output? Now imagine 2.75× that. We even dont know if the 11w tdp figure is just tdp or absolute peak power consumption of x570 under heavy pci-e 4 load
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,804
11,157
136
This looks like a flat object with no heat dissipation properties at all to you?

Thanks for showing us the heatsink without the logo. With the logo:

https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/GA-Z97X-Gaming-7-rev-10#ov

Hard to tell what's going on there. Regardless, I was thinking something closer to:

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/P5Q3/gallery/

Especially that hefty heatsink there in the middle. With even a little case airflow, that thing should fit the bill. TDP for P45 chipset was 22W. Granted, that was probably split between Northbridge and Southbridge but still. You get the idea.
 
Reactions: Ajay
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
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Thanks for showing us the heatsink without the logo. With the logo:

https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/GA-Z97X-Gaming-7-rev-10#ov

Hard to tell what's going on there. Regardless, I was thinking something closer to:

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/P5Q3/gallery/

Especially that hefty heatsink there in the middle. With even a little case airflow, that thing should fit the bill. TDP for P45 chipset was 22W. Granted, that was probably split between Northbridge and Southbridge but still. You get the idea.

I have a P5Q Deluxe and I will be adding some new case fans next week, want me to post a picture of the board and its heat sinks?
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,804
11,157
136
I have a P5Q Deluxe and I will be adding some new case fans next week, want me to post a picture of the board and its heat sinks?

Go for it. The Asus gallery page doesn't show that funky triangular heatsink very well from their chosen angles.
 

PPB

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,118
168
106
Thanks for showing us the heatsink without the logo. With the logo:

https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/GA-Z97X-Gaming-7-rev-10#ov

Hard to tell what's going on there. Regardless, I was thinking something closer to:

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/P5Q3/gallery/

Especially that hefty heatsink there in the middle. With even a little case airflow, that thing should fit the bill. TDP for P45 chipset was 22W. Granted, that was probably split between Northbridge and Southbridge but still. You get the idea.
This is a p5q-e heatsink shared between the left set of vrms and the chipset. The p45 chipset per my caliper measures 11.5x9.5mm.

The heatsink seems stronger that it really is. The deceiving color makes you think we are talking about 100% copper but in reality is anodized aluminum made to look like copper. To make things worse, the joint between the fin stack and the baseplate making contact with the thermal pad is not soldered but glued (i found out by breaking the top vrm heatsink of said motherboard

These kind of heatsinks banked big on you running stock cooling configurations, which for intel lga 775 were the aluminum extruded radial design with or without a copper core. This is why so many fins make sense as this heatsink is integrally dependant of the air renovation made by the open side nature of the intel fan.


Now, moving to 2019, where overclocking is mostly a feat made by big tower coolers and AIOs which criminally neglect chipset and vrm cooling, with a chipset that is purposedly far away the cpu socket so it stays near the pci-e i/o for better signal integrity required for pci-4 routing, and thus need low profile solutions so it doesnt interfere with the add in pci-e cards you would use on those ports

You see that this sum of factors make the natural conclusion be different from the p45 era and now? Even with a fin + heatpipes shared heatsink the design would fail because more than any other design, fin stacks need forced ventilation to make it work, as the total volume of metal is too low to dissipate the heat. Forced ventilation on enthusiast boards tend to be neglected by the nature of the cpu cooling involved, even the wraith spire with its closed side design and ~90mm height isnt that close for it to provide correct airflow to an hipothetical retro vrm+chipset design.

Another thing to consider is that whereas resistance of goold old 200x year mosfet was really high compared to the low rds "meta" of today, the surface area of said ics was bigger. Now we are packing integrated mosfets in such small places that fin stack designs might prove difficult, or worse, provide worse temperatures as fin stacks depend on baseplate surface area to transfer properly the heat to the heatsink. My ab350 gaming itx for example has only frigging 6.5mm of width to place a vrm heatsink, the most common heatpipe width is 6mm diameter, how can you achieve a heatpipe + fin stack design on such confined spaces.


I know pcb design could be different to accommodate better retro vrm+chipset heatsinks, we even have from time to time somewhat lookalikes like the z390 fatality itx which even if it doesnt use fin stacks, it shares a heatpioe between vrm and chipset so the vrms bank on the chipset heatsink surface area to better dissipate heat.

In the end economics of the scale favouring extruded alu heatsinks also play a factor. But these economics became possible because the industry altogether moved away from tini fin stack vrm heatsinks.
 

PPB

Golden Member
Jul 5, 2013
1,118
168
106
Since vrm heatsink design is one of my strange areas of interest here is a proper vrm heatsink design, the Hr-09u made by thermalright.

The baseplate is nickeled copper, the heatpipe is flat and touches the base to actually transfer the heat closes to the heat source unlike the p5q-e one, the fin stack has more density as this was also from the era of stock cpu top-down cooling dominant configurations.

But this wasnt what aibs made at the era, this heatsink was made to REPLACE the other heatsink i shared here from the asus p5q-e. And this is because even if those looked fancy to the naked eye, the didnt do their job as good as our nostalgia tinted glasses tricks us into thinking.

If you ask me, i would pay a 200 bucks x570 board only if it had vrm + chipset heatsinks like these, but then again, they cant guarantee you will properly feed this kind of design with forced ventilation. A AIO would be the bane of this heatsink design for example and the fin stack would lose purpose if air is stagnant and doesnt renovate

.
 
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