Speculation: Ryzen 3000 series

[PotatoWithEarsOnSide]

90ns memory latency on that 3600 with 2400MHz memory.
That is quite a lot more than we saw with the 3600MHz memory in an earlier bench. IIRC it was 60ns.

 

[Shivansps]

I don't really see a problem with this. They probably thought it could work and would be good PR. Now that they have final silicon and Navi, maybe they found it it didn't work as well as they had hoped. Now they have to deal with the bad PR. They probably should have kept quiet until they knew for sure.

What I think is more problematic is the possibility that Zen 2 might not work in X/B300 boards. It looks like that may not be true, or it may be on a board by board basis. That to me is more damning than not gaining a feature that did not exist when X/B400 came out.

I agree that is not as important as 300 series support, but the promise is already broken with A320 regardless of what happens with B and X that should not up to OEM choice in the first place.

The problem with PCI-E 4 is that they said it would work, you dont go out and talk about a feature for older motherboards along how awesome AM4 was and later go back on your word. AMD is very lucky that Intel did worse because all this, along with artificial cpu limits on X570 deserve a big public backlash.

 

[Shivansps]

I don't think it has anything to do with AMD being on top now. Most likely it's about limited resources. AMD is a small company, chances are resources they would need to allocate to work with OEM manufacturers to support PCIe4 on legacy motherboards are better used elsewhere working on new products.

It would have been nice to have PCIe4 on x470 motherboards, but realistically speaking PCIe3 is plenty fast for everything that I do nowadays to the point where I'd actually prefer cheaper fanless X470 over more expensive fanned X570.

They are a 50 years old company, one would think they know what is possible and what not by now regardless of your resources, they should have not said things that was not possible to do OR confirmed with OEMs first.

 

[Elfear]

I don't remember the original source for the PCI-E 4.0 on older AM4 boards rumor/statement. Was it AMD who put that out there or board partners?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I don't remember the original source for the PCI-E 4.0 on older AM4 boards rumor/statement. Was it AMD who put that out there or board partners?

It was said the "some" may support pcie 4.0

 

[Shivansps]

I don't remember the original source for the PCI-E 4.0 on older AM4 boards rumor/statement. Was it AMD who put that out there or board partners?

It first came from OEMs, that said some boards may get PCI-E 4 spec, AMD replied that they will not lock out the feature on 300 and 400 motherboards, that was up to the OEMs to validate and provide bios update for PCI-E 4 on older motherboards.

Now AMD came forward to say that they will just not allow it. Using a textbook excuse.

AMD wants fresh chipset money, this should not be a suprise to anyone.

 

[darkswordsman17]

My money is on the OEM Board partners getting upset at AMD for promising things they either won't or can't deliver. They will likely do QC testing on their top tier x370 and x470 motherboards but the rest of the lineup is going to be SOL I feel.

Yeah, just too much variance in board quality for them to say it would be possible. AMD should have simply just guaranteed PCIe 4 on 500 series boards and left anything beyond that up to the boardmakers, but that would also give boardmakers an out for not supporting it on older stuff (if they want to push people to newer, but fairly certain some boardmaker would enable it on some of their older ones as a way to get publicity and maybe to move those older boards while they work on developing newer ones). Its not like it even matters that much right now, and by the time its that popular (by that I mean PCIe 4 being looked at as a necessity) we'll be looking at PCIe 5 and other changes anyway.

Which, I think we see AM5 when PCIe 5 is ready since that's when trace length will start to become a very pressing issue and would make sense in doing new socket (I think AM4 could get us through another year or two especially if DDR5 is possible to help with memory bandwidth, but beyond that it definitely needs updating). I'm expecting it in 2021 (where it might not officially support PCIe 5 when its released, but AMD makes companies have to meet the spec anyway so that it can be enabled with future CPUs, and I think DDR5 will be out before then too; but maybe 2022/2023 AMD could do a "power of 5!" silliness of Zen 5 on 5nm, AM5, with PCIe 5, DDR5, and USB 3.2.1 Gen 5 ABDCEFG, maybe we'll get SATA 5 too boot!).

I personally also hope we might see something interesting, like put SSD PCIe slots on the back of the boards for shortest possible traces. It would probably require changes to case design, but honestly, the industry needs to be looking at modernizing these motherboard standards. BTX really wasn't that much of a change but required a fundamental change so I don't think it was worth it. But now, we've got the cooling concerns that was the impetus behind BTX, but now we're looking at limiting trace lengths for expansion slots and that will take a rethink of the standards to make possible. There's other ways to get around it (separating power and data, use fiber optic connections for data), but the industry doesn't seem ready to go there (and that's especially true in consumer).

Heck, why not dual chamber cases, and looking at sockets on both sides of the board (so you could do dual CPU, or maybe a CPU on one side and GPU on the other so that GPUs can get the cooling solutions that CPUs have had (there's a decent amount of YouTube videos showing how much more effective that is for cooling). Install a copper or aluminum plate with heatpipes between the two sockets to facilitate further cooling from that heat/energy dense region (which that could be integrated to the case so that the case would be dissipating that heat). Even if that was just for HEDT/enthusiast stuff I think it'd be worth it. Make most consumer stuff be mATX/microATX (maybe a new standard there merging the two, with maybe one having 2 expansion slots where it could be on either side of one face of the board or one on each side of the board, and then another that has maybe 4 or 6 and has the option of splitting them the same way; oh and the ones on the underside would be focused on probably SSDs, maybe dedicated I/O cards for stuff like USB and video and audio input/outpus).

 

[Shivansps]

You cant stamp "PCI-E 4 compatible" on a motherboard just like that, OEM needs to validate it, and if is validated then it works, this is why only some of the 400 boards would have gotten support and not every mb.

 

[DrMrLordX]

the nostalgics and or lunatics that got triggered by seeing a 50mm fan and went as far as to suggest everyone should copy the Gigabyte's design I linked above like it's a good design practice to trap the heat of your NVME SSDs plus other pcb components under such a massive PCH heatsink plate design.

I don't think it's a good idea to keep all that NVMe heat trapped under anything. Makes me skeptical of any of the board armor designs. It's bad enough to have NVMe drivers trapped under large video cards and the like.

Kinda makes me wish we had U.2 instead of M.2 drives. That fight was lost years ago, alas.

it's MTBF will well beyond what my use case for that motherboard would be.

If they really are reliable, then I don't see a major problem with it.

 

[B-Riz]

I was looking forward to some interesting tidbits here after being w/o internet for the weekend and, I learned about space pens, people complaining about X570 cooling, more complaining about X570 / PCIE Gen 4 existing / complaining about X470 PCIE Gen 4 support walk-back because it is *technically* a bad idea to try to implement.

The bloody B350 and up will get some Zen2 CPU support.

Board quality is, you get what you pay for on the most part.

The cheapest of cheap mobo chipsets may or may not work, sorry, I really don't have sympathy as, this is still a DIY ecosystem, OEM Ryzen still suffers from lowest common denominator effect as Intel stuff does.

Honestly, who buys a dang A320 board when B450 is barely any more $$$?

SO, $55 vs $69 for a vastly superior board, just stop complaing about "muh A320 support forever / ride or die A320 is the l33t best".

 

[DrMrLordX]

Honestly, who buys a dang A320 board when B450 is barely any more $$$?

That was brought up in another thread where A320 was being compared to an Intel chipset. Personally I would not go out of my way to use A320 for anything if I could avoid it. Certainly not for Matisse. Were I am OEM shipping millions of systems, I might think differently.

 

[Kenmitch]

Tom's hardware has a article up about the PCI 4.0 decision. Phone won't let me link it. Makes sense to nix it too me.

 

[Despoiler]

Tom's hardware has a article up about the PCI 4.0 decision. Phone won't let me link it. Makes sense to nix it too me.

https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/amd-pcie-4.0-socket-am4-motherboard,news-60855.html

It's exactly what I said it was.

 

[B-Riz]

https://www.tomshardware.co.uk/amd-pcie-4.0-socket-am4-motherboard,news-60855.html

It's exactly what I said it was.

Cannot fight physics.

"Given the circumstances, AMD is making the right choice here. Complicated support matrices, lowered throughput, and possible data loss are all untenable side effects of giving users what they want -- PCIe 4.0 support on motherboards that weren't designed for the task. "

 

[B-Riz]

That was brought up in another thread where A320 was being compared to an Intel chipset. Personally I would not go out of my way to use A320 for anything if I could avoid it. Certainly not for Matisse. Were I am OEM shipping millions of systems, I might think differently.

Yup, and, OEM's design the system as a whole package, so, they are not in mind if you can upgrade it or not. It is designed to meet a spec and sell for $XXX.XX amount.

 

[Despoiler]

Cannot fight physics.

"Given the circumstances, AMD is making the right choice here. Complicated support matrices, lowered throughput, and possible data loss are all untenable side effects of giving users what they want -- PCIe 4.0 support on motherboards that weren't designed for the task. "

Here is an article from early 2017 from a testing and validation vendor about PCIE 3 v 4

https://community.keysight.com/comm...pcie-40-is-not-simply-an-extension-of-pcie-30

 

[Ajay]

Here is an article from early 2017 from a testing and validation vendor about PCIE 3 v 4

https://community.keysight.com/comm...pcie-40-is-not-simply-an-extension-of-pcie-30

Thanks, great find! Makes me a bit curious as to why x570 boards don't seem to be supporting 2x 8 lane PCIe 4.0. Trace length appear to be acceptable, though PC grade components may introduce too much signal degradation. Heck, even consumer grade graphics AIB PCIe adapters may introduce the impedance issues the author mentions.

 

[Topweasel]

Yup, and, OEM's design the system as a whole package, so, they are not in mind if you can upgrade it or not. It is designed to meet a spec and sell for $XXX.XX amount.

That's the thing that is really bothersome about people talking about lost promises in regards to Chipset support. First AMD only promised the continual usage of AM4 with the intention of maintaining and upgrade path. But these are basically econo OEM specific products with no expected upgrade path. Even if AMD decided they could support it, its up to the motherboard manufacturers to offer those bios updates. Since we are talking about the same companies offering to little micro-code storage to support AMD's product lineup up to this point (because Intel only ever supported 2 gens in the past). That isn't a sure thing. Look at what AMD is doing with PCIe 4.0 support pulled because they felt there was to much well does work on this, may work on that, won't work on the other all within boards using the same chipset. AMD probably isn't supporting the A/B/X300 and 320 chipsets because of overall enthusiasm from OEM and board manufacturers and the choices they made on the boards at this price level.

 

[Topweasel]

Thanks, great find! Makes me a bit curious as to why x570 boards don't seem to be supporting 2x 8 lane PCIe 4.0. Trace length appear to be acceptable, though PC grade components may introduce too much signal degradation. Heck, even consumer grade graphics AIB PCIe adapters may introduce the impedance issues the author mentions.

Are we aware that they aren't? I mean till the full spec outline is available I would assume they are. Either way all PCIe connections on X570 should support PCIe 4.0. The problem is that the previous boards weren't designed to support the extra tech needed for longer traces.

 

[Kenmitch]

The wise man waits for reviews and enough data to reach his logical conclusion. Rumors and hearsay are for amusement in the meantime.

 

[Shivansps]

I was looking forward to some interesting tidbits here after being w/o internet for the weekend and, I learned about space pens, people complaining about X570 cooling, more complaining about X570 / PCIE Gen 4 existing / complaining about X470 PCIE Gen 4 support walk-back because it is *technically* a bad idea to try to implement.

The bloody B350 and up will get some Zen2 CPU support.

Board quality is, you get what you pay for on the most part.

The cheapest of cheap mobo chipsets may or may not work, sorry, I really don't have sympathy as, this is still a DIY ecosystem, OEM Ryzen still suffers from lowest common denominator effect as Intel stuff does.

Honestly, who buys a dang A320 board when B450 is barely any more $$$?

SO, $55 vs $69 for a vastly superior board, just stop complaing about "muh A320 support forever / ride or die A320 is the l33t best".

View attachment 7062

View attachment 7063

Sorry i had no idea the universe ended in the eeuu.

Can you please stop making excuses for a company and applying you own suggestive view as for a320 vs b450 is worth it or not? This is simple:

-A320 can support 105W 8c? Yes
-A320 is sold as a current product? Yes
-it was promised that am4 will last to 2020 regardless of the chipset? Yes
-there is any reason for a320 not to support 6 and 8c ryzen 3000? No

Period. You can agree with me or not, i dont care, but you cant argue with the facts.

They attacked a320 because it is the logest lived 300 series chipset, they sold a lot of A320 regardless of what you think if it worth it or not to buy in eeuu.

 

[Shivansps]

That's the thing that is really bothersome about people talking about lost promises in regards to Chipset support. First AMD only promised the continual usage of AM4 with the intention of maintaining and upgrade path. But these are basically econo OEM specific products with no expected upgrade path. Even if AMD decided they could support it, its up to the motherboard manufacturers to offer those bios updates. Since we are talking about the same companies offering to little micro-code storage to support AMD's product lineup up to this point (because Intel only ever supported 2 gens in the past). That isn't a sure thing. Look at what AMD is doing with PCIe 4.0 support pulled because they felt there was to much well does work on this, may work on that, won't work on the other all within boards using the same chipset. AMD probably isn't supporting the A/B/X300 and 320 chipsets because of overall enthusiasm from OEM and board manufacturers and the choices they made on the boards at this price level.

i dont care if its the OEM or AMD at fault here. One of the strong points of AM4 when launched was the "support until 2020", no one said ANYTHING about being OEM choice (B300 and X300) or that A320 will lack support enterely (that was something I WAS THINKING and some people attacked me for saying it back in 2017/8), if that was the case why they didnt launch a replacement A420? The keep selling A320 as first line product just to cut support suddenly now? I rather think it was a "accident".

Personally i would not buy A320 either, and personally i dont care, i care a lot more for my B350 motherboard that still has no bios, but professionally, A320 is our best sold AMD chipset and it was for 2 years now, there is no excuse for what is happening on A320.

 

[Markfw]

All this whining when a $55 B450 motherboard will support at least 8 cores for this generation, and probably the next one or 2. They never said "but we will give you new features that you can't use unless you upgrade." They said you won't have to buy a new motherboard, and I don't care about the 300 series either.

 

[Shivansps]

All this whining when a $55 B450 motherboard...

This means you also support what Intel does?

 

[Topweasel]

*Planned AM4 socket support until 2020. Subject to future roadmap modifications.

Seems to me in there that said that this was their intention but they couldn't promise people that this was actually going to happen. Cept for the most part they are sticking to that. But whether or not it was disinterest by the MFGs or an understanding on the lackluster build quality or what. They are going into their 3rd gen and probable 4th generation of support on the older platform. I am not going to slam them for not being perfect. They at least tried. We got a new chipset and platform for increased power usage on CoffeeLake. Even though we know that's not a real issue on the Z chipsets boards that you had to get anyways. But AMD says ok we can mostly do it but certain versions aren't going to work as well, but still letting the other chipsets work, when the competition would just write off the whole platform, should be commended.