Speculation: Ryzen 3000 series

[Yeroon]

While I don't want to drag this out because it has been beat to death. But where did the old computer build policy of never skimp on Motherboard and PSU go?

That policy was never about always buying the best. But it was about assessing the quality of the board before making a decision. Not going oooh I can save $5 on the most absolute barebones boards possible. We deride OEM's that make that decision. Why the hell are we duplicating it. It's not just about VRM's either. Though it does play a part. There is general support, Firmware updates, time to EOL. These are the things that are never in your favor if you go for the absolute cheapest motherboards.

I've been wondering the same thing for the entirety of the a320 complaining. Either buy a quality board off the bat that will still be in great shape come upgrade time, or accept that you'll need to buy a new motherboard when that time comes -and- that might come early due to a cheap board. Its not like having the latest generation of cpu is a mandatory requirement for anything of personal use.

 

[Markfw]

I've been wondering the same thing for the entirety of the a320 complaining. Either buy a quality board off the bat that will still be in great shape come upgrade time, or accept that you'll need to buy a new motherboard when that time comes -and- that might come early due to a cheap board. Its not like having the latest generation of cpu is a mandatory requirement for anything of personal use.

Its really from one user that thinks the next step up costs too much, and everybody where he lives makes no money, but after 2 years, they have over $200 to upgrade their quad core to a hex core.

Logic does not fit that scenario IMO

 

[coercitiv]

I've been wondering the same thing for the entirety of the a320 complaining.

No need to wonder, it's just noise. I suspect few or no people in this thread actually built a Zen system on A320.

 

[Topweasel]

I've been wondering the same thing for the entirety of the a320 complaining. Either buy a quality board off the bat that will still be in great shape come upgrade time, or accept that you'll need to buy a new motherboard when that time comes -and- that might come early due to a cheap board. Its not like having the latest generation of cpu is a mandatory requirement for anything of personal use.

I think this merge of two ideals. If you got a barebones Intel board that did everything you wanted it to and you could be as cheap as you wanted to be because as long as the board worked you were set for the life span of of your system. If you got the board early in the cycle in theory you would get one upgrade and it wouldn't be good enough to make it worth upgrading. So now you have a socket that will see several upgrades and eventually one with double the cores, 25% higher clocks, 15-20% better IPC. It makes upgrading worth it. But you can't go bottom barrel on the boards and expect the same support that even the middle of the road boards would get. But if you used to get away with going super low before I can see how people would be slow to change.

I used to spend a little bit more on boards because back in the day a bad board could mean frying CPU, GPU, heck I even had one friend go through 2-3 hard drives till they figured out the BIOS causing Hard drive controllers to corrupt the drives FW.

 

[Flayed]

You can run a 2700 non x on an a320 board so there already is an upgrade path from a quad core so I don't really see what the problem is.

 

[Veradun]

kids these days eh?

Everything else in a build can change over time with progress, but the case, mobo* and PSU should always remain the same. Hence, don't skimp on these.

You want a long term platform, you spend the extra on these items for it.

*otherwise its a new build.

My build still sports a Seasonic X 750 from 10 years ago or so :>

 

[Markfw]

My build still sports a Seasonic X 750 from 10 years ago or so :>

Some motherboards will not boot on those older power supplies.

 

[Veradun]

Some motherboards will not boot on those older power supplies.

Well, since I'm on a very current B450I Aorus Pro WiFi I'm optimistic I can still boot any standard build

 

[Markfw]

Well, since I'm on a very current B450I Aorus Pro WiFi I'm optimistic I can still boot any standard build

Well, it was something like a "Haswell" requirement, back then I was buying all Intel, and I could not get a system to boot when I found this.

Edit: This may be what my real problem was: https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/what-does-haswell-ready-mean-for-psus.2164659/


Corsair explains it here.

When an Intel Core (i3, i5, i7) processor is idle, it goes into a sleep state that requires less power than when the CPU is active. Since the motherboard voltage regulation modules that provide power to the CPU gets their power from the power supply's +12V rail, these sleep states can dramatically reduce the load on the power supply's +12V rail.

According to Intel's presentation at IDF, the new Haswell processors enter a sleep state called C7 that can drop processor power usage as low as 0.05A. Even if the sleeping CPU is the only load on the +12V rail, most power supplies can handle a load this low. The potential problem comes up when there is still a substantial load on the power supply's non-primary rails (the +3.3V and +5V). If the load on these non-primary rails are above a certain threshold (which varies by PSU), the +12V can go out of spec (voltages greater than +12.6V). If the +12V is out of spec when the motherboard comes out of the sleep state, the PSU's protection may prevent the PSU from running and will cause the power supply to "latch off". This will require the user to cycle the power on their power supply using the power switch on the back of the unit.

While we are still working with Intel on the details of the testing methodology they use to check PSUs for Haswell compatibility, it is already known that a power supply that uses DC to DC for the non-primary rails (the +3.3V and +5V) will not have an issue with the new low power sleep states. This is because a DC to DC buck converter is used to convert +12V to +3.3V and +5V. This means that no matter what load the CPU puts on the power supply, there will always be a load on the +12V because the +12V is required to provide power to +3.3V and +5V.

Corsair utilizes this DC to DC technology in most of their power supplies. Starting with the CX750 and CX750M and moving all of the way through the GS Series, TX and TX-M Series, the HX Series, both the AX Series Gold and AX Series Platinum, and the new AXi Series. So whatever your budget, if you choose Intel's new Haswell processor and wish to utilize the new, low power C7 sleep state, Corsair has a power supply for you.

 

[deathBOB]

While I don't want to drag this out because it has been beat to death. But where did the old computer build policy of never skimp on Motherboard and PSU go?

That policy was never about always buying the best. But it was about assessing the quality of the board before making a decision. Not going oooh I can save $5 on the most absolute barebones boards possible. We deride OEM's that make that decision. Why the hell are we duplicating it. It's not just about VRM's either. Though it does play a part. There is general support, Firmware updates, time to EOL. These are the things that are never in your favor if you go for the absolute cheapest motherboards.

Because none of those things are easy to assess and even if they were, the various board manufacturers are all very similar?

Motherboards are commodity products. Deciding on the minimum features you need is the only important question.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Enough with the A320 talk, honestly it’s amazing you can go from a 1000 series Ryzen to a 2000 series Ryzen.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

All X570 boards are going to be expensive, also per this guy AMD is changing it’s direction from value leader to high end performance leader. Obviously AMDs stuff will cost more.
Good news & bad news all wrapped up in one story.

Lots of people ask me, what do you think about today's AMD? I say today's AMD is completely different company compared to two, three, five years ago," Chiang said. "They have nice technology and they are there to put the higher spec with the reasonable pricing. But right now they say, "Hey Charles, lets push to marketing to the higher [end]. So let's sell higher-pricing motherboards, higher-spec motherboards, and let's see what will happen in the market. So I don't think that AMD is the company that wants to sell low cost here, low cost there."

That change in focus could make X570 motherboard pricing comparable to, or even higher than, many Intel Z390 motherboards. "I would like to say the price would be comparable, and even higher for some SKUs," Chiang said. "But I can tell that if an X570 is compared to our Z390, if the specs are equal and everything, I don't think we [are] going to price AMD lower. I don't think that's realistic because the cost of the motherboard [will] be higher, and maybe the pricing [of] the chipset [is] higher."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.tomshardware.com/news/msi-amd-x570-motherboard-pricing,39593.html

 

[Topweasel]

Because none of those things are easy to assess and even if they were, the various board manufacturers are all very similar?

Motherboards are commodity products. Deciding on the minimum features you need is the only important question.

Cept even when talking X370 and B350 there were like 2-3 boards at the bottom of the stack that got EOL'd pretty quickly. They were boards that were pretty apparent at launch that they were not ones people recommend. Look this isn't saying you always have to go with a 'RoG Hero or Strix and this isn't limited or really even about this stupid A320 conversation. We aren't even close to the point were boards can or can not pass the eye test let alone a scroll through the spec list. Yeah sometimes it means getting something with a few more options than you need. But if you are looking for future CPU support, you first have to make sure you are getting support in the future in the first place. That's on top of getting a board that doesn't look it was barely made to spec. Same reason I don't recommend "right sizing PSU" it's not about going crazy with power. But there is a difference between getting a PSU that spends most of its work life at 90% usage and one thats at like 75% or lower.

 

[Kedas]

So maybe for budget: B550 or X470 for Ryzen 3000
If B550 exist or maybe B550 doesn't exist because people can choose X470 instead.
The B450 was also a later release...

 

[Topweasel]

All X570 boards are going to be expensive, also per this guy AMD is changing it’s direction from value leader to high end performance leader. Obviously AMDs stuff will cost more.
Good news & bad news all wrapped up in one story.




https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.tomshardware.com/news/msi-amd-x570-motherboard-pricing,39593.html

Honestly it's probably their bad for pricing the X370 so low to begin with low end X370 boards and B450 boards overlapped to crazy amounts. The X570 chipset is an enterprise chip converted to a desktop chip and high end ryzens are getting farther and farther away from general computing processors. I hope to see some $157-175 boards and understand 90% are going to be over that but its also the Mobo manufacturers and not just AMD pushing the X570 platform into a true enthusiast platform. Hopefully that means they won't screw up the B550 launch.

 

[Topweasel]

So maybe for budget: B550 or X470 for Ryzen 3000
If B550 exist or maybe B550 doesn't exist because people can choose X470 instead.
The B450 was also a later release...

I expect that B550 will basically be an X470 chipset with PCIe 4.0 x4 interconnect to the CPU instead of a PCIe 3 one. So that would make sense.

Honestly outside getting the CPU to chipset connection sped up there will probably be little reason to worry about X470 vs. B550. Basically to say there is no real worry.

 

[Shivansps]

No need to wonder, it's just noise. I suspect few or no people in this thread actually built a Zen system on A320.

Last database cleanup was in january.

This is only complete pre-build PCs, i dont keep track of parts sold individually, thats not my department.

Its really from one user that thinks the next step up costs too much, and everybody where he lives makes no money, but after 2 years, they have over $200 to upgrade their quad core to a hex core.

Logic does not fit that scenario IMO

I respect what the people buy, im going to ask you to stop insulting our clients just because you feel the need to defend a company. This is low, very very low coming from you.

While I don't want to drag this out because it has been beat to death. But where did the old computer build policy of never skimp on Motherboard and PSU go?

That policy was never about always buying the best. But it was about assessing the quality of the board before making a decision. Not going oooh I can save $5 on the most absolute barebones boards possible. We deride OEM's that make that decision. Why the hell are we duplicating it. It's not just about VRM's either. Though it does play a part. There is general support, Firmware updates, time to EOL. These are the things that are never in your favor if you go for the absolute cheapest motherboards.

I would guess to the same place that a word given by a company went. What you want me to do? If we stop offering these options people are going to buy it from someone else. I would not care if not one would buy it, simple as that. Im not going to judge how other people expend their money just to defend a company. We have all the options avalible and we make no false adverseting, what is already A LOT comparing to what others do, if you only went to see the listings... there is one of another company that has a "gaming pc" consisting of 4GB of ram, a generic GTX1060 3GB, 9400F, H310, they sold over 180 of these, you know what the rating is? 4.9! Here it is, enjoy.
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.a...ddr4-hd-1tb-gtx-1060-3gb-gamer-_JM?quantity=1
Do /46 to get the value in dollars.


This went too far. Enoght is enoght.

-Edited the last part to avoid more conflict-

 

[DrMrLordX]

So maybe for budget: B550 or X470 for Ryzen 3000

X470 has a few good choices. If you're only going for 6c Matisse, then your choices open up a little more, like that $100 Gigabyte X470 board. Just be careful about getting a board without an updated UEFI.

 

[Shivansps]

I heard nothing of a B550 so far, to the point the PMs of Gigabyte and Asus here have no idea(or they cant say a thing)...But considering they told me about X570 a few months back i belive AMD wants the X570 to have PCI-E 4.0 exclusivity for a few months. B550 could be Q4. Ill have to ask their representatives again, im still hoping for B550 sooner than later.

 

[.vodka]

Spoiler: offtopic

This went too far, i had to prove that im really working for a company that builds computers in my country, then another user, that is a moderator not less, insulted not only our clients but the people of my country as well, all this just because AMD made a promise that was impossible to mantain mainly due to OEMs and i dont like that. Enoght is enoght.

You'll have to start selling B350 boards with your builds instead of A320, sorry. If modded BIOSes come up and actually work, do try them. If you trust the modder (say, 1usmus from OCN) or the tools to do it yourself, you might just be able to stay on A320 for the highest volume builds.

On the other topic.. You're speaking to the wrong audience. This kind of argument would fly on 3dg or somewhere else that is local, not here.

Our reality (in particular ours more than others) doesn't apply to the rest of the world. You and I know that. Of course when you expose people to the insanity that is Argentina all you get is bewilderment, especially to an audience that is mostly American.

----------------------------------------------------

Context for everybody else: They can save, we can't. They can plan ahead for years and have that plan be useful going forward, we don't know what the **** will happen next week. Their inflation amounts to 1-2% yearly, we deal with 2-5% monthly and we take that as normal, etc. I could do a laundry list if I wanted.

Truth is, computers have become luxury items since last year's brutal devaluation (for those who are wondering... yup, we used to have an exchange rate ~$13-20/USD from 2016 to ~may 2018, then it became ~$35-40 in less than a month. A year later we're now at ~$46. End of year after elections should be ~$60. It's becoming exponential.). Salaries have taken quite a beating. *Everything* gets more expensive every day. So, when talking about computers built for volume, A320 being a few dollars cheaper sure impacts things for us when taking that into account... not to mention the insane amount of taxes thrown in ballooning end price even more.

Argentina, lovely and cheap place to go on a vacation if you choose the right place, mostly a bad experience to live in.

Its really from one user that thinks the next step up costs too much, and everybody where he lives makes no money, but after 2 years, they have over $200 to upgrade their quad core to a hex core.

Logic does not fit that scenario IMO

Mark, Argentina doesn't run on logic. Never has, or at least does not since the late 1940s. Trust me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AMD's decision outright kill A320 compatibility for 3000 series parts sure is weird. They could've at the very least forced manufacturers to drop support for Bristol Ridge in their new BIOSes then use that freed space for some 3000 series parts microcode. I mean, at least let people get a ~3600 that will sip power, not be a threat to any weaksauce VRM and still be quite the upgrade vs even a 2700x on most tasks.

Of course then, AMD and their board partners want to sell more boards and they want to start making more money out of the low end now that they have an established and desirable brand. It's strange we haven't heard anything on lower end 500 series chipsets, probably 400 series will be on production for longer and have its prices lowered to fill in that void.

Expect hacked BIOSes in the usual forums adding support for the ones who want to tinker and are stuck with the hell that is an A320 board. That chipset shouldn't have ever gone out to the retail market, it should have only existed on brand name computers meant for offices.

 

[Yeroon]

Spoiler: Shrinking Shivansps quote

Last database cleanup was in january.

View attachment 7191
This is only complete pre-build PCs, i dont keep track of parts sold individually, thats not my department.



I respect what the people buy, im going to ask you to stop insulting our clients just because you feel the need to defend a company. This is low, very very low coming from you.



I would guess to the same place that a word given by a company went. What you want me to do? If we stop offering these options people are going to buy it from someone else. I would not care if not one would buy it, simple as that. Im not going to judge how other people expend their money just to defend a company. We have all the options avalible and we make no false adverseting, what is already A LOT comparing to what others do, if you only went to see the listings... there is one of another company that has a "gaming pc" consisting of 4GB of ram, a generic GTX1060 3GB, 9400F, H310, they sold over 180 of these, you know what the rating is? 4.9! Here it is, enjoy.
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.a...ddr4-hd-1tb-gtx-1060-3gb-gamer-_JM?quantity=1
Do /46 to get the value in dollars.


This went too far. Enoght is enoght.

-Edited the last part to avoid more conflict-

So it seems most of those running the a320 in your picture aren't even on an SSD, and running APU's.
I'm putting you on ignore, you cant seem to drop this ridiculous derailing.

 

[Markfw]

Last database cleanup was in january.

View attachment 7191
This is only complete pre-build PCs, i dont keep track of parts sold individually, thats not my department.



I respect what the people buy, im going to ask you to stop insulting our clients just because you feel the need to defend a company. This is low, very very low coming from you.



I would guess to the same place that a word given by a company went. What you want me to do? If we stop offering these options people are going to buy it from someone else. I would not care if not one would buy it, simple as that. Im not going to judge how other people expend their money just to defend a company. We have all the options avalible and we make no false adverseting, what is already A LOT comparing to what others do, if you only went to see the listings... there is one of another company that has a "gaming pc" consisting of 4GB of ram, a generic GTX1060 3GB, 9400F, H310, they sold over 180 of these, you know what the rating is? 4.9! Here it is, enjoy.
https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.a...ddr4-hd-1tb-gtx-1060-3gb-gamer-_JM?quantity=1
Do /46 to get the value in dollars.


This went too far. Enoght is enoght.

-Edited the last part to avoid more conflict-

Yes, too far. Now you are insulting me, and trying to defend your position to everyone on this forum. NEVER did AMD say all AM4 socket motherboard were upgradable to Ryzen 3000 series, and all CPU's, they only said the SOCKET was upgradable. How many times do we have to drill this into your brain, that you are WRONG, and stop trolling this forum and insulting its members. including me.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I am surprised anyone sold so many A320 systems in non-OEM configurations.

Anyway, on to other news:

I found a good source of X570 board information on OCN. Read updated OP:

https://www.overclock.net/forum/13-amd-general/1624051-vrm-new-am4-motherboards.html

And start getting updated info on page 328:

https://www.overclock.net/forum/13-amd-general/1624051-vrm-new-am4-motherboards-328.html

Though I think the high-end Asus boards are 14+2 and not 12+4? I could be wrong.

A lot of people are saying 12 phases in the primary with at least 40a per phase should be enough for a 3900x. At least now I understand why the high-end Gigabyte board is such a big deal though: not only is it 14+2 config with 70a per phase, but it also has a 16-phase PWM (everyone else is using 8-phase PWM or lower) and has an 8-layer PCB. Completely over the top.

 

[SPBHM]

in some poorer countries I'm sure A320 sold decently, the price difference between A320 boards and B450 can be significant,
if AMD artificially blocks all A320 it's really bad form, because I just don't see a reason, the chipset is more or less a PCIE device, there are Zen2 CPUs with 65W TDP which are perfectly fine for A320 boards, as far as I can see some A320 and B350 boards are very similar in quality overall,

and the bios thing, I've just checked randomly an Asus A320 and a mid range or higher B350 board from them and they use the same bios chip with 128Mb, and there are ways to remove things and save space.

upgrading an a320 board to 3rd gen Ryzen makes perfect sense, for something like the 3600.
so I'm little puzzled with this decision.

 

[Thunder 57]

in some poorer countries I'm sure A320 sold decently, the price difference between A320 boards and B450 can be significant,
if AMD artificially blocks all A320 it's really bad form, because I just don't see a reason, the chipset is more or less a PCIE device, there are Zen2 CPUs with 65W TDP which are perfectly fine for A320 boards, as far as I can see some A320 and B350 boards are very similar in quality overall,

and the bios thing, I've just checked randomly an Asus A320 and a mid range or higher B350 board from them and they use the same bios chip with 128Mb, and there are ways to remove things and save space.

upgrading an a320 board to 3rd gen Ryzen makes perfect sense, for something like the 3600.
so I'm little puzzled with this decision.

Here's the thing; Had this been an Intel launch, based on their recent history, zero 300/400 chipsets would work with Zen 2. Since it is AMD we have options. Stop looking for a negative where there isn't one.