Speculation: Ryzen 3000 series

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ub4ty

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Jun 21, 2017
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Just glanced at the 9900k reviews from this site, HardOCP, Tom's Hardware and Gamer's Nexus. Unless I missed something, every single one shows the 9900k to be faster for gaming in every single game across a large range of titles from FPS to RTS. You are making a statement that goes against the evidence, please back up your statement with evidence from reliable sources.
Any game that the 2700x performs better than a 9900k on will be an extreme outlier ...


3rd video down when you google 2700x vs 9900k
FPS is all over the place. For the most part, the 9900k beats the 2700x which it better with 500-700mhz clock advance. However, sometimes the FPS is neck to neck and sometimes the 2700x surprisingly beats the 9900k even though it is -500 to 700mhz slower. Given how much a CPU can do in 10ms and how underutilized they are... Yeah, I'm go to go right ahead and state that its crappy programming. One thread slammed to 100% and others at 20% or 0%. Games are not written for 8 core processors. Windows scheduler is most definitely slamming threads around all over the place behind the scenes mucking up things for a NUMA based CPU.

Now, if you want to find me a detailed analysis like I requested showing a interaction/timing diagram of every component in the system and where the real bottlenecks are, I'm all ears on this topic. Until then, and given the limitations of the human visual cortex, I'm going to call this : An excessive FPS obsession over the top performance which isn't even perceivable in real world scenarios and just amounts to endless and pointless performance metric gloating. Something I don't buy my computer hardware based on...

What is most of all hilarious to me is that, over the christmas break, I played on an "ancient" PS4 and I had the best gaming experience of my life... The graphics were amazing. Meanwhile, it's 30-60fps and complete console costs as much as just an Intel CPU. But here we are for the 1000th and 1 time in the PC centering on silly metrics that are imperceivable that less than 1% of the market actually goes out and purchases for their gaming experience. Completely stunned that a 2700x can be neck to neck or beat a 9900k in gaming performance (something that should be a GPU bound and centric operation). It's like people want to hang on to any lest shred of reasoning to praise Intel. And I can't voice how tired I am about this kind of discussion. People who openly state : I don't care why or how something works.... Just that it works and I get 'muh fps'. This is why PC gaming almost died and why the majority of gamers are playing pubg/fortnite and on consoles where people aren't arguing about FPS all day long and just want to have fun on bargain basement hardware. Most people could care less about penumbra and FPS. They play games to have fun and socialize not rant and rave about FPS differences that your brain is unable to perceive.

Sure, I'd love for all games to be so cleanly programmed that they run extremely effiently and don't need high end hardware, but you and I both know that's a pipe dream.
It's not a pipe dream... It's reality which is why the majority of people aren't playing these super high performance requirement games. Do I need a 2080ti and an 9900k to play fortnite? Pubg? You're missing the point all together. No one plays these titles in mass. No one cares about FPS beyond a super small minority. Consoles push frames at 30-60fps. Do you hear anyone crying ad naseum? No, they're too busy enjoying the game. I bet I could sell a 500fps device to some of these kinds of people and they'd buying up like crazy w/o knowing or caring that it only can achieve 200fps. The pipedream is this literal obsession with increase upon increase that diminishing returns. Where's Nvidia's stock right now? What's happening to Geforce 20 sales? What's happening the the sales numbers of $1,000 iphones. There's a point absurdity and PC gamers a deep in it.

I deal with reality, not fantasy, and just like "AMD owning the console market will make AMD CPU/GPU game awesome" never came to fruition, hoping for games to be programmed better is a massive waste of breath. The reality is AMD has some serious ground to make up in gaming and it may or may not do that with Zen2. I hope they do.
The reality is that literally no one cares about this obsession that plagues the 1% of gamers who want 4k @ 500hz. The reality is that the console market is 30-60fps but here this vocal minority is screaming for triple that. I don't have to hope a game is programmed properly. If it doesn't run on the hardware I have dedicated to it, I'm not buying the game. I'm pretty sure the lion share of the market operates this way if you look at steam data which is why only 1-3% of people have 1080tis or higher and the most played games can run at 60fps at 1440p on bargain basement hardware. AMD is right where they need to be and surpassed Intel the moment they released Ryzen. That reality becomes more and ore with each product iteration. Whether they appease the vocal minority who don't serve as their volume consumers is immaterial to their product roadmap. Intel will always likely chuck some turd out the back of a truck which this group will clamor for at double the price of AMD.

Most of us running high hz monitors tailor our graphics settings to target high frame rates. SLI 2080TIs are needed for high frame rates.
Dear lord.. I was literally joke about the SLI'd 2080tis... So, you're literally 0.5% of the market. You dropped $2,400 on vidya cards...

In most games even a 1070TI will pull high frame rates with appropriate settings, especially at 1080p. Sorry, but going from 60hz to 144hz was huge and anyone that's done it will tell you the same thing. Is 120 to 144hz the same jump, nope and maybe it's not noticeable but I can absolutely tell when framerates are hopping all over and when fps drops down below 100fps. If you want smooth, high frame rates on AAA games like BFV, unfortunately your only option right now is Intel. If you're ok with 60hz AMD becomes an option and a much less expensive one.
Consoles run at 30-60fps.. Please find the millions of people who are crying in horror.
Nothing of value changes with higher rates. Maybe your feels.. But nothing changes I can assure you that. You're still going to get your butt kicked by some kid on poverty tier hardware if you're not good at a game and he's going to have just as much fun as you. No one is handing out cookies or awards for FPS. That $2 million dollar formula car exists because it's a profession with prizes, marketing potential, and high tier drivers who are paid to win. Nobody pays the millions of people playing vidya games w/o compensation.

It's a video game for christ sake... and no I can't tell what the FPS is nor do I care because I'm too busy enjoying the game and the players. Everyone swears their some pro-league champion who needs $500 jordans on their feet. This is what happens when a fun niche activity goes mainstream. WE WUZ PRO LEAGUE. There's a point in which a hobby becomes an obsession and sometimes more than that. The only reason people were so critical about performance in the past is because you had 10fps @640x480. The closer to the point you hit literal physical limits of your biological body is when these kinds of obsessions become absurd. If you want high FPS, you're going to get lower quality.. Even your brain operates this way. Until they make cyborg implants, you're never going to get around this. In reality, people are talking about how comfy a 2200G is in pubg :

Meanwhile, the obsessed are saying a 2700x is inadequate.. roflcopter
 
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The craziest thing I can think of would be ditching the CCX and using individual, single core chips plus an IO die. At 7nm they'd be tiny.

I initially thought Milan was the APUs (but that's Picasso). Hmm, crazy thing on the EPYC...

My guess would be they make a new design, where they switch to dedicated I/O socket, and offer chips that are entirely I/O. And each one can support 4 or maybe even 8 CPU sockets (using multiple I/O dice for the I/O chip depending on how many sockets it needs to support), and then the EPYC CPUs become just CPU cores, so they see another doubling of cores per chip in the top end CPUs. Maybe less than double but with large cache only dice or something.

More of a corporate thing. Market got stale, there was little need to keep expensive & talented people around so cut payrolls to get rid of them to save a few salary dollars, then mis-read what your competitor is doing and have no talent left.

No, I got that. I just have zero idea why that can't be remedied when things are doing better? Plus, it offers no insight on if those resources mattered much for what the company is doing now or will be doing in the future. I just noticed they were talking about Intel, and that doesn't really change that, and Intel likely had a glut of those resources that were not being utilized properly so I think it'd impact them even less.

4 generations of the same core, and 10nm being stuck in the mud for years isn't a good thing. They've made their short term gains from those decisions, and they could continue making money just about forever that way if there were no competition. And there wasn't for a very long time. Once you lose high end talent, it is very difficult to get replacements. Then more years developing a product and getting it out the door.

Oh, I misread things, I thought you were talking about what AMD had done post Bulldozer. My argument being, yeah they had lean years, but now they're on a positive track.

With Intel I think that'd be even less of a concern and actually probably fits my point about maybe those were not only not really benefiting their product development, but may have even been part of the issues they've had (although I think management is Intel's biggest issue, but its hard to argue they're struggling with the technical side - but we don't know if that's because of them ditching those resources, or maybe that's why those were viewed as expendable as even with them or possibly because of them, Intel has been suffering technical complications).

I think that was true in the past, I think it is much less so today. In fact, some of the key players seem to be almost outright mercenary, where they come on, execute a plan/project, and then leave for other opportunities. I'm sure there's probably some that wouldn't come back, but how many of them ended up in more stable situations or just outright retired and left the industry? Companies in general are operating like that any more, so people should probably get used to expecting things to operate in that manner more, and adjust their personal employment outlook accordingly.

Which, has Intel even actually been losing talent like that? Haven't they been adding quite a lot (Keller and his group, but for GPU development they brought over quite a few people from AMD). And just looking at AMD, they lost a lot of talent and resources, but it arguably helped them. I think Intel could likely use a similar adjustment, especially with the help of people like Keller to focus their development. Seems that Intel was squandering a ton of that talent on things that either never ended up going anywhere at all (I recall there being talk about multiple architecture teams, and that they worked on things but many of them never made it into anything), or flopped because they didn't follow through with an actual plan (stuff like Atom where they've let it languish after trying to force it into mobile market and it flopping).

Boooooooooooring. Let’s hope that keynote has something more 7nm flavoured.

It will (they've literally said it is about their 7nm products).

I'm actually glad they got this out of the way ahead of time instead of it just adding to the noise of the keynote. Smart move, now things there can be focused around 7nm.

Google it. I found it in less than 2 minutes. A side by side showing 2700x vs 9900k in various games and the 2700x beat the 9900k in variosu games (It was a youtube video).



I Care when it will cost me double the money and it's due to someone writing crappy software... Maybe that's where were different. GPU or CPU limited is a thing. Lastly, when your visual cortex is dropping frames for 18ms at a time, I'm loving the 500hz fantasy cyberborg class gamers rant about... Essentially useless performance.. Something clever companies make tons of money off because certain consumers don't care how or why things work. I got $40 bottles of smart water for sale as well.


> MUH vidya
Show me the SLI'd 2080tis for $2400 and we can talk about the dire need for vidya performance. Obviously there's a sensible limit.

Its so easy to find yet you couldn't provide a link? Would be really curious how they got their results, as like others said it doesn't fall in line with what basically everywhere else finds. So either they were doing an equal price thing (pairing the Intel with probably less and slower RAM, maybe a cheap board and cheap HSF that is keeping it from hitting clocks properly, while giving the AMD system higher speed memory), or there's something else at play.

My Vote for Ryzen 3000 APU vote was confirmed. 4 core monolithic APU:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13771/amd-ces-2019-ryzen-mobile-3000-series-launched

It's just Raven Ridge with mild process upgrade, which was pretty much what was on roadmap slides if one wasn't swayed by wishful thinking fueled rumors.

I don't think that has been in question for quite some time, and is different from what others were speculating about as its different platforms.
 
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ub4ty

Senior member
Jun 21, 2017
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Its so easy to find yet you couldn't provide a link? Would be really curious how they got their results, as like others said it doesn't fall in line with what basically everywhere else finds. So either they were doing an equal price thing (pairing the Intel with probably less and slower RAM, maybe a cheap board and cheap HSF that is keeping it from hitting clocks properly, while giving the AMD system higher speed memory), or there's something else at play.



I don't think that has been in question for quite some time, and is different from what others were speculating about as its different platforms.

Posted it. Literally the 3rd video on youtube if you search 2700x vs 9900k.
FPS is all over the place. In some places the FPS is the same. In others, it varies. Win for 9900k in some cases.. Win for 2700x in some cases.. Indicating its not about the raw CPU capability.. It's moreso about the 20 or so other factors that randomly align.

CPU cores are widely underutilized. In some cases, one core is slammed 100% with others at 20-50%.. Multi-threading is abysmal. You see patterned activity traverse the cores indicating that windows scheduler is punting processes around mucking up efficiency whereby a 2700x w/ NUMA would be impacted. At a high level.. Crappy OS scheduler and code w/ no NUMA awareness. When things coincide to some normalcy, performance is equal between the two processors as you would expect. When yester years code combines w/ a range of factors, the 9900k pulls ahead. If a video game is designed properly, it should be GPU bound not CPU bound. Going out of your way to load the CPU with things that can be baked is sloppy/lazy development.

Video games aren't a serious use case. So, I don't treat performance benchmarks centered on them seriously. Performance depends upon how well code is written and code isn't written that well. I'm not going to break my wallet to make up for lazy code development. I'm also not going to break my wallet for video games. I play vidya games on a 4 core intel from 2014 on a basic video card. When I decide to upgrade that who knows... It's something I fire up for fun and to waste time. On the compute performance side, I have strictly AMD rigs. One is a threadripper with far more compute power. This fits with this thread and computing going forward. I could care less what Intel did in the past or what a dead socket CPU based on ringbus does in terms of performance of any kind. In the future, intel will have to move towards a model with higher latency. So, debates about the 8700/9900k are mute topics. This will become fully realized in the coming days.
 

amd6502

Senior member
Apr 21, 2017
971
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excellent (4ghz) boost freqs for a 15W APU. Can be run at 35W too.

There's no reason Picasso APU wouldn't show up on AM4 in a little while, as 35W-65W processors (maybe with cTDP, which would simplify the lineup), as ryzen 3 and 5 3x00G's.

Now a couple 7nm ryzen 7's would fill in the higher frequency IPC and core count part of the product line. I really hope they will come with a small igpu.
 

ub4ty

Senior member
Jun 21, 2017
749
898
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excellent (4ghz) boost freqs for a 15W APU. Can be run at 35W too.

There's no reason Picasso APU wouldn't show up on AM4 in a little while, as 35W-65W processors (maybe with cTDP, which would simplify the lineup), as ryzen 3 and 5 3x00G's.

Now a couple 7nm ryzen 7's would fill in the higher frequency IPC and core count part of the product line. I really hope they will come with a small igpu.
Time to put my quadcore intel up for sale soon.. become completely AMD . That actually might be next upgrade/purchase and a sensible one.. cut down on power and heat and get a nice upgrade.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,797
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https://www.anandtech.com/show/13771/amd-ces-2019-ryzen-mobile-3000-series-launched

AT has an article about the Pinnacle Ridge products launching at CES, along with a surprise - a new Excavator processor aimed at Chromebooks.

Yay Bristol Ridge?!?!? I guess they have to figure out something to do with them leftover 28nm wafers from GF . . .

Actually I think HP is the only one that's gonna use those new BR chips in Chromebooks anyway. To me if they want cheap AMD hardware in 2019, they should just use a 2200u and be done with it.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
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excellent (4ghz) boost freqs for a 15W APU. Can be run at 35W too.

There's no reason Picasso APU wouldn't show up on AM4 in a little while, as 35W-65W processors (maybe with cTDP, which would simplify the lineup), as ryzen 3 and 5 3x00G's.

Now a couple 7nm ryzen 7's would fill in the higher frequency IPC and core count part of the product line. I really hope they will come with a small igpu.

These are nice little chips. Ryzen Mobile was already excellent with Raven Ridge, according to rumoured performance increase Ryzen Mobile II on 12nm should continue to be the premier mobile processor. All intel has is their 14nm +...+ processors there getting long in the tooth.

A quick introduction (quicker than a normal product release cycle) of new 7nm parts with a generational leap in performance at the top of the product stack would be a killer. AMD has been executing the roadmap that assumes intel's 10nm didn't fail so their 7nm products are probably close to ready. Having GloFo and TSMC making 12nm and 7nm parts and given the performance of Ryzen Mobile already that should put AMD in a pretty good position.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,797
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These are nice little chips. Ryzen Mobile was already excellent with Raven Ridge, according to rumoured performance increase Ryzen Mobile II on 12nm should continue to be the premier mobile processor. All intel has is their 14nm +...+ processors there getting long in the tooth.

In all fairness to Intel, their first "real" 10nm chips will probably be mobile parts. It'll be late 2019 before we see them, but they should be considerably better than the Whiskey Lake stuff we're seeing today. I don't expect Picasso to fare all that well once IceLake U/Y are on the market. Nobody should be surprised, either. AMD is a server-first company right now.
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
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Yay Bristol Ridge?!?!? I guess they have to figure out something to do with them leftover 28nm wafers from GF . . .

Actually I think HP is the only one that's gonna use those new BR chips in Chromebooks anyway. To me if they want cheap AMD hardware in 2019, they should just use a 2200u and be done with it.
Just a correction, it is Stoney Ridge.

Which uses a separate die which can be seen in HP screenshots; https://support.hp.com/doc-images/803/c05963327.jpg <-- Clivia; 26.8 x 17.9 cm
https://support.hp.com/doc-images/23/c05963585.jpg <-- Cosmo; 28.9 x 16.8 cm

Which is definitely not the 250 mm squared of Bristol Ridge.

There is evidence, that there will be Raven/Picasso in higher end Chromebook models.
 
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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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As a reminder Stony ridge is 125.5mm2
https://www.anandtech.com/show/10362/amd-7th-generation-apu-bristol-ridge-stoney-ridge-for-notebooks

Makes tons of sense to use for that market. And fine product vs atom. All if battery power can be as amd promised. I doubt that even if the platform and apu at launch was a huge step forward in that regard. We will see. Interesting move imo.

The same goes for the facelifts ryzen apu. Looks super adequate on paper. But idle power usage was a huge disappointment on the first gen so let's see. I am still wondering how they messed that up. This platform change is very much needed. I don't think it's booooring because the most interesting part need to be tested.
 
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DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,797
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Just a correction, it is Stoney Ridge.
.

Oh, even better.

Makes tons of sense to use for that market. And fine product vs atom.

It's cheap, I guess. Like I said, gotta do something with them 28nm wafers. If anyone starts using Goldmont+ in Chromebooks, though, I wouldn't want to be the guy buying Stoney Ridge instead. Don't think they've put a J5005 in one. Yet. Would rather see some Picasso in there, hopefully at a price point below $999 (Pixelbook, ugh).
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Oh, even better.



It's cheap, I guess. Like I said, gotta do something with them 28nm wafers. If anyone starts using Goldmont+ in Chromebooks, though, I wouldn't want to be the guy buying Stoney Ridge instead. Don't think they've put a J5005 in one. Yet. Would rather see some Picasso in there, hopefully at a price point below $999 (Pixelbook, ugh).

Obviously this is bottom of the barrel reused cheap junk. But it's a market you need to handle and this is just there asking for this type of usage..
It makes me wonder how they will serve that market in a year or two? I simply can't see how this is done. 14 or 7 nm. Ryzen one or two arch?. 1 or 2 cores ...4 core?
How to cover cost???
When thinking about that it becomes obvious why they reuse this old tech.
 
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exquisitechar

Senior member
Apr 18, 2017
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Sad how AMD is barely trying with their mobile offerings, but I suppose the odds are stacked against them in that market. Raven Ridge suffered from poor battery life relative to Intel's offerings and other issues, but the opportunity was there to now capitalize on their node advantage and they didn't take it. Their 12nm APUs won't make too much of a difference and Renoir will be far too late.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Sad how AMD is barely trying with their mobile offerings, but I suppose the odds are stacked against them in that market. Raven Ridge suffered from poor battery life relative to Intel's offerings and other issues, but the opportunity was there to now capitalize on their node advantage and they didn't take it. Their 12nm APUs won't make too much of a difference and Renoir will be far too late.
Who in this forum have proposed some 7nm apu might magically appear now?
It was set in stone those 12nm apu would arrive now.
I have personally bought more than a handful of expensive intel ultrabooks being all 2 cores. Took two months before Zen apu arrive to double the core count. After 6 years of stagnation.
That is the definition of sad.
 

dnavas

Senior member
Feb 25, 2017
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I don't expect a laptop push until 7+. 7nm is the server push. 7nm == more cores. 7+ == better efficiency. Yes, 7nm is better than 12nm, but when you can only target one at a time....
 
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mikk

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Posted it. Literally the 3rd video on youtube if you search 2700x vs 9900k.
FPS is all over the place. In some places the FPS is the same. In others, it varies. Win for 9900k in some cases.. Win for 2700x in some cases.. Indicating its not about the raw CPU capability.. It's moreso about the 20 or so other factors that randomly align.

It isn't all over the place, it is consistent. Pretty much all tests say the same, Intel wins in gaming: https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3423-intel-i7-7700k-revisit-benchmark-vs-9700k-2700-9900k

Of course if a test is more GPU bound Intels faster gaming CPU can't pull away. Don't use cherry picked benchmarks.
 

exquisitechar

Senior member
Apr 18, 2017
666
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Who in this forum have proposed some 7nm apu might magically appear now?
It was set in stone those 12nm apu would arrive now.
I have personally bought more than a handful of expensive intel ultrabooks being all 2 cores. Took two months before Zen apu arrive to double the core count. After 6 years of stagnation.
That is the definition of sad.
I'm well aware that 7nm APUs were never supposed to be released anytime soon, it's still unfortunate that Ryzen mobile APUs have such a staggered release cadence and that AMD is struggling in the laptop market due to several reasons.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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I'm well aware that 7nm APUs were never supposed to be released anytime soon, it's still unfortunate that Ryzen mobile APUs have such a staggered release cadence and that AMD is struggling in the laptop market due to several reasons.
Well they need as we both agree to fix battery life. It's a notebook processor and it failed where it was most important. I think there is plenty performance. 4GHz precision boost 2 on 4 cores is fine for 95%.
If anything 9w tdp on 4 cores would be better than more performance.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,797
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I'm well aware that 7nm APUs were never supposed to be released anytime soon, it's still unfortunate that Ryzen mobile APUs have such a staggered release cadence and that AMD is struggling in the laptop market due to several reasons.

It's rather obvious that AMD isn't prioritizing APUs right now. At least their product lineup for mobile is better than what they had in 2016.
 
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