Speculation: Ryzen 3000 series

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PotatoWithEarsOnSide

Senior member
Feb 23, 2017
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Threadripper has it at a pretty constant 45W from 16-32 threads, which would explain the high idling of the ES that AdoredTV caught at the start of the demo.

The estimated TDP for the ES core would be around 40W then. So around 10% lower clocks for the 16core could fit within that 105W TDP, with XFR pushing it another 15-20W.
Close, but not quite.
We've got multiple sources quoting 75w for the CPU, so if we go with TR 45w then it is 30w for the 8c, so room for another 8c for a minor clock drop if at all.
But then we have to factor that the ES was highly likely running much higher voltages than we'll see on production chips.
There's definitely scope there for 16c, whether it is 105w or 125-135w. For the most part, I don't think it matters if it does end up being 135w as per the Adoredtv leak, since all that implies is perhaps they might have left headroom there.
There's also no guarantee that the IF is using the same power, so there's room for manouver up or down on TDP estimates.
Of all the Adoredtv leaked info, the actual TDPs was the least dubious of the lot IMO. The guy was talking about the plausibility of the leaks, and I agreed with his analysis even if I didn't necessarily agree with all of the detail. That's the thing; he never claimed that they were right, only that they were plausible. He may have been naive to believe the leaks so readily, but they weren't in anyway obviously wrong.
 

PotatoWithEarsOnSide

Senior member
Feb 23, 2017
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I get why Intel would want to sell chips with disabled faulty iGPUs. What I don't get is why they would do it if it's nothing more than an enthusiast niche that OEMs will only sell high end game systems for, especially considering the 9350KF isn't exactly a high end chip.

I was replying specifically to this quote:
"Without iGPU desktop ryzen will remain an enthusiast niche....no OEM will touch it beyond high end/game systems "
Most OEM sales will be to users/businesses that have no need for games but do need an IGPU to power their monitor. With Ryzen you need a DGPU otherwise you will see a blank screen lol.

Edit: scratch that - I misread your post.
 
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naukkis

Senior member
Jun 5, 2002
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I get why Intel would want to sell chips with disabled faulty iGPUs. What I don't get is why they would do it if it's nothing more than an enthusiast niche that OEMs will only sell high end game systems for, especially considering the 9350KF isn't exactly a high end chip.

At this time enthusiast niche has no other possibility than buy AMD-chip as Intel is out of stock. Intel can sell igpu-less F-chips for exactly same price as full chips as full chips is out of stock. When there was not supply issues Intel didn't sell gpu less chips.
 

DarthKyrie

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2016
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At this time enthusiast niche has no other possibility than buy AMD-chip as Intel is out of stock. Intel can sell igpu-less F-chips for exactly same price as full chips as full chips is out of stock. When there was not supply issues Intel didn't sell gpu less chips.

Not to derail this but it fits into the current discussion about Intel graphics. With that out of the way. What nVidia IP does Intel have permanent access to? Also, does anyone know if Intel gained access to AMD graphics IP in the semi-custom deal?
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
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Not to derail this but it fits into the current discussion about Intel graphics. With that out of the way. What nVidia IP does Intel have permanent access to? Also, does anyone know if Intel gained access to AMD graphics IP in the semi-custom deal?

Intel has permanent access to all patents filed until the end of the agreement which was sometime in 2017 IIRC.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,815
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Not according to anandtech which has it at 1754. Those scores must have been on fast memory maybe? But the ES was running slow memory so I think 1754 is the proper baseline.

AnandTech ran it at stock for Bench. At stock, a 2700x boosts to 4.0-4.05 GHz for a benchmark like CineBench R15. Not 4.3 GHz. It only runs 4.3 GHz for single-core turbo. So the ST score @ stock will be recorded at 4.3 GHz. The MT score will be recorded at around 4.0 GHz. That is why a 2700x OCed to 4.3 GHz all-core will score higher than anything reported by AT.
 
Dec 10, 2018
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GPU on separate chiplet makes no sense - it needs to be on the I/O chipset, because close coupling with the memory controller for maximum bandwidth is crucial.

I would expect the opposite if bandwith is the constraint. A closer coupling with the memory controller would have a lot greater effect on latency than bandwith. If it reduces bandwith by too much the simple option is to just make the bus between the chiplet and memory controller wider.

However, there is not enough space on the I/O die for even a basic 2-3 CU iGPU. Based on the size, I expect only the same northbridge/southbridge connectivity that Zeppelin had to be there (it's the same 14nm node), only upgraded to PCIe 4.0 and perhaps with more evolved memory controller.

There probably just isn't any space left for fancy stuff, neither GPU nor extra cache. They would have to massively squish all the non-CCX blocks that Zeppelin had, or eliminate a lot of them.

Agree with you here, although like the people saying that the IO chiplet may be bigger than a quarter of the Rome IO; there are probably extra/different features or maybe a bit of L4? I'm doubting it more than I'm being hopeful though.

Would it be possible to create a Ryzen 3000 cpu consisting of 1 I/O die + 1 zen2 chiplet + 1 L4 cache chiplet? A bit like the 5775C but without the iGPU. Maybe this would alleviate poor memory latency.

I imagine that L4 on yet another chiplet would just increase latency because data would have to travel through the IO die to reach the Core chiplet.

Also I'm pretty sure that caches have to sit between the memory controller and core, so it'd make no sense for L4 to be on a separate chiplet than the IO die. Someone please confirm though because I know Intel had eDRAM to speed up their igpu on some chips and that was a separate piece of silicon.

That's not what i said or what most were expecting. I've always maintainted we'd see a mid '19 launch at the soonest.

I'm just saying that no products being announced at CES (just a demo), together with no G-versions or extended TDP versions into 125W-135W, the only thing correct on that list will likely be 16-core versions, which isnt that hard to guess when the core count is being doubled and you have half the power for the same performance.

My point was his leaks have already been disproven on three critical points.

AdoredTV's leaks have always been just leaks. If you watch his videos, he's very forthcoming and honest about how the detailed aspects may not be completely accurate, and when he is speculating more than providing accurate information.

You have to be completely ignorant or disingenuous to treat all his statements as 100% factual and then personally attack and call him a liar when he never claimed that his details were 100% accurate.

Sure, some of what he said didn't turn out to be true, but I think most people who watched his videos would agree that it fell within the "margin of error" that AdoredTV said, or that is inherently part of leaks. To attack people who report on leaks is more of a statement on how the attacker hyped up the details for himself and couldn't accept the truth, rather than how dishonest the reporter is.
 

IRobot23

Senior member
Jul 3, 2017
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True that.

Everythink is leak until AMD officialy confirms it. About the frequency we can expect that ZEN2 IPC is higher than ZEN+. People are getting 2kp in CB R15 with 4,4GHz with R7 2700x.

Is core perf. big problem with ryzen? NO

Is CCX architecture a problem? NO

Is IF speed a problem? YES. IF at 3GHz would probably make ryzen = intel in gaming.

What is interesting that even people who give us leak ignor facts that are important. AdoredTV discovered higher iddle power on AMD ~20w... Which could mean that I/O was using at least 20W while not being optimized for low power
 
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PotatoWithEarsOnSide

Senior member
Feb 23, 2017
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It will for certain be; the IF doesn't idle, which is the biggest weakness of the lot, other than it being linked to memclock.
I suspect it is the additional memory controllers in Threadripper and Epyc that was showing up as higher uncore/IF power in the previously linked reviews of TR.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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Boy AdoreTV sure seems to be on to something with their multiple chiplet / quarter IO die rumors.

Lisa Su said that this I/O was designed specially for Desktop, and i belive her far more than Adored. Its like AMD specially targeted what Adored said to bring everything he said to the ground... I/O designed for desktop, the 8C is 1 chiplet not 2, no GPU chiplet, nothing of Navi. The fact Adored still has any credibility after that amazes me.
 
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PotatoWithEarsOnSide

Senior member
Feb 23, 2017
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It would not surprise me if the X SKUs will be fully functional chiplets, and non-X are defective multi-chiplets, except any 12c X variant which would have to be defective unless laser cut or otherwise locked.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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Nothing we've seen confirms that a 2 compute chiplet 8 core is not coming. In fact, it would have several advantages over a single compute chiplet 8 core CPU, such as more cache and far lower thermal density...it's up to AMD if they will do it or not.
I dont think so, while it may happen they gain nothing out of it, harvested dies are probably going on 6C models and 4C are most likely 12nm Picassos, 4C harvested dies seems unlikely, this was clear to me once they released the 2400G that it was a way better money maker for AMD than using harvested dies. To me 8C are only 1 chiplet. I do belive a 2 chiplet, 12C CPU will be real. But 2 chiplets 8C? very unlikely.
 
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naukkis

Senior member
Jun 5, 2002
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Nothing we've seen confirms that a 2 compute chiplet 8 core is not coming. In fact, it would have several advantages over a single compute chiplet 8 core CPU, such as more cache and far lower thermal density...it's up to AMD if they will do it or not.

Yeah, wasting fully working chiplet to 8-core desktop SKU would need yields to be sky high. If CCX is still 4-core there's no any benefits from using one 8-core chiplet vs two 4 cores so AMD preferred chiplet configuration is pretty obvious.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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GPU on separate chiplet makes no sense - it needs to be on the I/O chipset, because close coupling with the memory controller for maximum bandwidth is crucial.
However, there is not enough space on the I/O die for even a basic 2-3 CU iGPU. Based on the size, I expect only the same northbridge/southbridge connectivity that Zeppelin had to be there (it's the same 14nm node), only upgraded to PCIe 4.0 and perhaps with more evolved memory controller.

There probably just isn't any space left for fancy stuff, neither GPU nor extra cache. They would have to massively squish all the non-CCX blocks that Zeppelin had, or eliminate a lot of them.

I dont understand this, what im missing here. The I/O size is about the size of a Raven Ridge die minus the 4C CCX, and you need to remove extra stuff needed to support that CCX. Raven Ridge I/O is already everything this Ryzen I/O should have... if there is no vega 11+Display block+multimedia block inside in what they are going to use all that empty space for? 4 Satas+2xDDR4+4xUSB3.1+32PCI-E+2xIF links is really a LOT of physical pin room needed and no much of cirtuity inside. Even if i take into consideration that it may have a 2xDDR5 controller as well that once again will increase a lot of pin area needed.
 

PotatoWithEarsOnSide

Senior member
Feb 23, 2017
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Those 8c chiplets have to go to Rome first, with enough leftover for Threadripper too. That's why I think it'll just be the X SKUs that get a fully functional chiplet.
 

Joe Braga

Member
Dec 31, 2017
25
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I dont think so, while it may happen they gain nothing out of it, harvested dies are probably going on 6C models and 4C are most likely 12nm Picassos, 4C harvested dies seems unlikely, this was clear to me once they released the 2400G that it was a way better money maker for AMD than using harvested dies. To me 8C are only 1 chiplet. I do belive a 2 chiplet, 12C CPU will be real. But 2 chiplets 8C? very unlikely.
Will it be impossible AMD put NAVI CUs on the IO die already be impossible to have a GPU Chiplet?
 

Joe Braga

Member
Dec 31, 2017
25
10
51
I dont understand this, what im missing here. The I/O size is about the size of a Raven Ridge die minus the 4C CCX, and you need to remove extra stuff needed to support that CCX. Raven Ridge I/O is already everything this Ryzen I/O should have... if there is no vega 11+Display block+multimedia block inside in what they are going to use all that empty space for? 4 Satas+2xDDR4+4xUSB3.1+32PCI-E+2xIF links is really a LOT of physical pin room needed and no much of cirtuity inside. Even if i take into consideration that it may have a 2xDDR5 controller as well that once again will increase a lot of pin area needed.
Shouldn't AMD remainder if is it possible to put Vega CUs Chiplet at least in one Ryzen 3000 SKU
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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Those 8c chiplets have to go to Rome first, with enough leftover for Threadripper too. That's why I think it'll just be the X SKUs that get a fully functional chiplet.

They really need to have a high failure rate in order to need to use 2 chiplets for a 8C, i just dont think is gonna happen. This is similar to Ryzen 1200/1400 everyone trought it was fine, but reality showed they moved those to a native 4C die with minimal harvesting.

There are other ways to get rid of bad dies, supplying 6C and 12C cpus for desktop is one of them and they may even do 4C Zen 2 if needed. So 2 chiplets 8C is unlikely at best.
 

H T C

Senior member
Nov 7, 2018
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Those 8c chiplets have to go to Rome first, with enough leftover for Threadripper too. That's why I think it'll just be the X SKUs that get a fully functional chiplet.

While true, the binning for those is completely different:

- Rome will get the most energy efficient perfect chiplets, taking into considerations they have either 4, 6 or 8 fully functioning cores, depending on Rome chip core count
- Threadripper will get the highest frequency perfect chiplets, taking into considerations they have either 4, 6 or 8 fully functioning cores, depending on Threadripper chip core count
- AM4 should get everything else

Considering Rome get's a small fraction of total chiplets and Threadripper gets another small fraction, the amount "available" for AM4 is quite large, no?
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
3,873
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Shouldn't AMD remainder if is it possible to put Vega CUs Chiplet at least in one Ryzen 3000 SKU

I think Zen 2 are still too far away to give any more information. In fact i think those leaks in the last few days was the reason of why they rushed a Zen 2 preview. They dont even have a fully working ES yet. Keep in mind that it may not come this year if something goes wrong.

Will it be impossible AMD put NAVI CUs on the IO die already be impossible to have a GPU Chiplet?
I really dont know what they can do or what they are going to do, what i think is that the I/O chip with nothing else inside is very much empty because it needs to be big for the physical area for contacts, just like old fashioned NB were until someone came out with the idea of adding a GPU in there.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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I think Zen 2 are still too far away to give any more information. In fact i think those leaks in the last few days was the reason of why they rushed a Zen 2 preview. They dont even have a fully working ES yet. Keep in mind that it may not come this year if something goes wrong.

What are you even talking about? You honestly believe that AMD threw together a demonstration of Zen 2 at CES in the last minute in response to some leaks? Do you seriously believe that AMD wouldn't have planned to talk about or show Zen 2 at their CES keynote presentation?

And what do you mean by "fully working" engineering sample? They had a chip running Cinebench, so I'm not sure what part of that wasn't fully working. They showed off and benchmarked a 64-core Rome part back in November, so it's pretty clear that things are not only fine, but that they'll be shipping later this year as AMD has already announced.
 
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