Speculation: Ryzen 3000 series

[DrMrLordX]

How low can the latency drop on an optimized setup?

Depends on timings. Higher DDR4 speeds will help with IF latency no matter what the RAM timings (so that's good), but if it's, you know, CL20 or higher then maybe not so compelling compared to tight DDR4-3466 CAS/CL 14 which was achievable on my 1800x with a better UEFI rev than the one I have now. I think some folks have had DDR4-3600 CAS/CL 14 on Zen/Zen+.

Higher speeds usually come with looser timings, and rather often with worse latency.
I suspect there'll be an optimum speed where latency is at its lowest, and that'll be where the best gaming will be found.

Yeah, what you said.

I'm assuming you are talking about memory latency, but, maybe you were also talking about IF considering how intrinsic they are to each other.

Also what you said.

Strange world we live in, a few months ago people were complaining there wasn’t enough VRM power delivery on many 370/470 boards, now there appears to be tons of power delivery, so much that it requires a fan.

This matter has been somewhat addressed, but it really does look like the chipset (not VRM) fan is only responsible for dealing with maybe 15W of extra heat? Or so? Unless I'm remembering the extra power requirements for X570 over X470 incorrectly. Nothing a simple heatsink couldn't handle.

Dota 2 is basically using Source 2 at this point. Which still has a lot of Source 1 (which in turn was developed from The Quake 1 engine). So runs on a toaster but clocks are king over just about anything else.

CS:GO also uses Source 2 though, does it not? It responds much better to Matisse than Dota2.

Im sorry but this is a broken promise. There is NO REASON for A320 and other 300 series mb to no support up to 8 cores.

Does it support 8 cores now? Honest question, I don't really know if there are any A320 boards that can run an R7 2700 (for example).

Wow stuff is getting interesting.
X570... Amd can't win, punters screamed for advanced features, premium build, lot's of choices and lots of power available for OC, the gave it to them, now they complain!
Don't forget you can use the last gen boards.

I think some people will use X470 if they can get proper clocks from their CPUs and RAM on them. As for the fan, well, honestly, why do they really need a fan? Gigabyte figured out how to build a board without one. Too bad they want so much for it.

Zen2 apparently supports JEDEC DDR4-3200 speeds. Does anyone know if this only applies to the X570 chipset or if this will be available on X470 boards as well? (And is there a release date for unbuffered ECC DDR4-3200 DIMMs?)

One of the problems I imagine people will have with X470 (and even worse, X370) boards with Zen2 is proper UEFI support for various memory speeds. My own X370 only supports DDR4-4000, so no DDR4-4600 goodness to be had on it. Unsure how many X470 boards support such high RAM speeds.

JEDEC DDR4-3200 is pretty rare, since it's . . . CAS/CL 20 or so? Most of the DDR4-3200 you see on the market is CAS/CL 16, requiring the use of XMP settings to achieve the advertising timings.

People seem to believe that Intel's CEO was fired for this stuff up, but I can't help but feel that not enough heads have rolled.

Probably not the topic for it, but if Intel keeps cutting, maybe Raja will be the senior executive . . . ?

 

[Arkaign]

No because investors and profit margins and such
Point is now intel has an incentive to produce something good. This is regular market stuff.

Yep. It's one of the more irritating things about standard market factors in publicly traded corporations.

If product and sales is superior : stagnation and profiteering

If product and sales are under pressure :
suddenly they refocus on increasing the quality and appeal of their products

They're a big lumbering organization though, and these things take time to implement. It's not like making a burger or a car, where much simpler overhauls can bring you from last to first with resources and known quantities. It takes lengthy planning and execution in things that almost never exist in the planning stages.

Now they're definitely not starting from zero, but they should recognize that they're facing existential risk unless they can fix their fabrication tech and execution.

Their 10nm is ~7nm basically, but late late late. They would not be in such doodoo if they hadn't botched the last half decade. They just didn't notice so much because they were soaking in easy profits all this time. Even now they're still massively ahead in market share, but investors don't like seeing precipitous declines, and I'd absolutely sell Intel short the next 6-18 months, following their actual ability to run volume at 10nm for large dies and whether their 7nm (5nm equal) is on any kind of track.

 

[mattiasnyc]

Plus as I said earlier if there is any remote way to f something up, AMD is bound to find a way.

I'm not sure I understand why you say that.

I got a Ryzen 7 1700 a few months before the 2700 came out. I got a really good 8 core CPU at a great price, with a completely acceptable fan included that isn't too loud and that does the job. Overclocks on all cores easily to 3.7GHz or 3.8... 16GB 3200MHz Samsung B-die (Corsair Vengeance) memory, no problem.

Asus Prime x370-A motherboard that allows for my pro Lynx TWO-B legacy PCI audio card to run on it which further reduces system cost and increases predictability etc for me when I actually work on the system.

Like, I really don't understand what was f-d up here... The value was and is tremendous.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I'm not sure I understand why you say that.

I got a Ryzen 7 1700 a few months before the 2700 came out. I got a really good 8 core CPU at a great price, with a completely acceptable fan included that isn't too loud and that does the job. Overclocks on all cores easily to 3.7GHz or 3.8... 16GB 3200MHz Samsung B-die (Corsair Vengeance) memory, no problem.

Asus Prime x370-A motherboard that allows for my pro Lynx TWO-B legacy PCI audio card to run on it which further reduces system cost and increases predictability etc for me when I actually work on the system.

Like, I really don't understand what was f-d up here... The value was and is tremendous.

Memory support and less than ideal game performance during the first release. Admittedly it got fixed but it would have been better if it didn’t need a fix.

 

[Abwx]

This matter has been somewhat addressed, but it really does look like the chipset (not VRM) fan is only responsible for dealing with maybe 15W of extra heat? Or so?

The corporate and server variant is the one with 15W TDP because it has more PCI lanes.

The consumers dedicated X570, the one discussed in this thread, come with 40 PCI lanes and 11W TDP, so it s essentialy a cut down version wich eventually could later be expanded at no cost for future MBs...

 

[Mechanical Man]

No because investors and profit margins and such
Point is now intel has an incentive to produce something good. This is regular market stuff.

Just not true when they are trying to make a new process node that would give them lot more business advantage. You just don't build new factory and don't use it. Delaying decision to build that factory or more of the factories is different story, but decision to build it had been made and they have been trying to get it running for ages for a lot of money.

 

[zinfamous]

AMD used to be the kid that was wimpy and bullied, got their lunch money taken away before school. They've since worked out, got ripped, learned the martial arts, and are ready to kick some arse! They want their lunch money back!

someone needs to put together an 80s-style montage of this happening.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Just not true when they are trying to make a new process node that would give them lot more business advantage. You just don't build new factory and don't use it. Delaying decision to build that factory or more of the factories is different story, but decision to build it had been made and they have been trying to get it running for ages for a lot of money.

We will see...we will see...

 

[DrMrLordX]

The corporate and server variant is the one with 15W TDP because it has more PCI lanes.

The consumers dedicated X570, the one discussed in this thread, come with 40 PCI lanes and 11W TDP, so it s essentialy a cut down version wich eventually could later be expanded at no cost for future MBs...

Thanks. So it's only 11W. Passive heatsinks, unobstructed by board armor, can handle 11W easily.

 

[piesquared]

Yep. It became pretty clear that Intel started sandbagging after Sandy Bridge. Almost all their efforts were in CPU status quo with extremely iterative improvement at best, with much more focus on all kinds of other things. IGP, SSD, etc, they're a bit all over the place.

Look at the 9700/9900 die. The Intel HD IGP takes up almost precisely the space of 4 full cores, yet is probably used by a fraction of buyers of that SKU. This is why I never agreed with the idea of putting it in every single desktop SKU like they did, it's wasteful at best.

A '9970k' would be possible with current design with 12C/24T with no IGP.

It was even more heinous with 2600k/3770k/4770k, where it was basically half the die size just for unnecessary IGP.

AMD on the other hand saw clearly that they could easily exploit that weakness by skipping the GPU on non-APUs to make the most of the potential with their CPU designs, and it paid off.

It also makes sense from a business perspective since they can also sell discrete GPUs.

 

[Abwx]

Thanks. So it's only 11W. Passive heatsinks, unobstructed by board armor, can handle 11W easily.

A large passive heatsink, by large i mean a plate big enough, like using a 1$ aluminium MB cover instead of the plastic generaly used, it has already been made on an overpriced MB.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1443...hip-x570-aorus-xtreme-16-phase-for-ryzen-3000

 

[DrMrLordX]

Yeah I'm familiar with that board. That's a silly way to go about it. I guess Gigabyte just didn't want a board that looked like it had design elements from 2009. Never mind that some of those design elements actually work.

 

[scannall]

Yep. It's one of the more irritating things about standard market factors in publicly traded corporations.


Their 10nm is ~7nm basically, but late late late. They would not be in such doodoo if they hadn't botched the last half decade. They just didn't notice so much because they were soaking in easy profits all this time. Even now they're still massively ahead in market share, but investors don't like seeing precipitous declines, and I'd absolutely sell Intel short the next 6-18 months, following their actual ability to run volume at 10nm for large dies and whether their 7nm (5nm equal) is on any kind of track.

I would argue the botching started in 2009, when they turned down Apple for making iPhone chips. All those many billions that went to foundries like Samsung and now TSMC could have been Intel's instead. The foundries would still be behind, and Intel would have had more R&D money. Though they likely would have stagnated anyway, because when you have a lead you milk it. At least in Intel's world.

 

[Abwx]

Yeah I'm familiar with that board. That's a silly way to go about it. I guess Gigabyte just didn't want a board that looked like it had design elements from 2009. Never mind that some of those design elements actually work.

The only design flaw is the price, OEMs are taking advantage of AMD s relatively low pricing to grab more of the added value, at some point they negate AMD s own strategic management, luckily there will be MBs at 200$, i dont expect 570X MBs to be priced below this level +-15%...

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Yeah I'm familiar with that board. That's a silly way to go about it. I guess Gigabyte just didn't want a board that looked like it had design elements from 2009. Never mind that some of those design elements actually work.

I was thinking yesterday that 2004-2009 computer cases looked like transformers, waaaay over accessorized.
Now motherboards are starting to look like transformers....

 

[scannall]

The only design flaw is the price, OEMs are taking advantage of AMD s relatively low pricing to grab more of the added value, at some point they negate AMD s own strategic management, luckily there will be MBs at 200$, i dont expect 570X MBs to be priced below this level +-15%...

The MSI Gaming Plus X470 is $120. I don't expect the X570 to go up a whole lot from there. It's what I have after my Asrock motherboard died.

 

[Abwx]

The MSI Gaming Plus X470 is $120. I don't expect the X570 to go up a whole lot from there. It's what I have after my Asrock motherboard died.

There was nothing really new from the X370 to the X470, this time they will market the novelty, among others PCIe 4, as the X570 is quite more potent than the X470 also for other I/Os.
First buyers will go 8C/12C and wont bother for the 60-80$ more than your board did cost.

 

[mattiasnyc]

Memory support and less than ideal game performance during the first release. Admittedly it got fixed but it would have been better if it didn’t need a fix.

First of all, not everyone is a gamer. Even for some professional workloads memory speed isn't crucial and neither is gaming performance.

Secondly, from what I can tell a lot of the memory "issues" were reported by early adopters using memory they thought should work but didn't, but also in many cases weren't on the approved lists by the mobo makers.

So to me that wasn't a f-up, it's just the standard way things tend to improve over time. Nobody that needs mission-critical performance would buy any CPU upon release and put it to work. Everyone else should know what's in store at this point, and it's not limited to AMD.

 

[Ajay]

Yeah I'm familiar with that board. That's a silly way to go about it. I guess Gigabyte just didn't want a board that looked like it had design elements from 2009. Never mind that some of those design elements actually work.

Well, a lot of enthusiasts have cases with acrylic or tempered glass sides now-a-days. Can't have ugly boards with decent sized finned copper heatsinks on them. Or, if necessary - standard fans (40mm, 60mm - easily replaceable) with smaller heatsinks. They just wouldn't fly today.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

First of all, not everyone is a gamer. Even for some professional workloads memory speed isn't crucial and neither is gaming performance.

Secondly, from what I can tell a lot of the memory "issues" were reported by early adopters using memory they thought should work but didn't, but also in many cases weren't on the approved lists by the mobo makers.

So to me that wasn't a f-up, it's just the standard way things tend to improve over time. Nobody that needs mission-critical performance would buy any CPU upon release and put it to work. Everyone else should know what's in store at this point, and it's not limited to AMD.

Still generated less than stellar reviews

 

[Shivansps]

Does it support 8 cores now? Honest question, I don't really know if there are any A320 boards that can run an R7 2700 (for example).

They can, A320 can run a 105W 2700X, it just has lower or no XFR. A320 is designed for 105W, it must support the 2700X after all. And a lot of A320 boards, if not all of them, are just X370 or B350 mATX boards with a diferent chipset. At any rate i dont think anyone is asking for 12C 105W CPU support on A320, even trought the 2700X IS SUPPORTED, but the 6 and 8C ones should be supported.

But this dosent end on A320, B300 and X300 are OEM choice, that is not what was promised.

And also not supporting 1st gen Ryzens and Raven on X570 is 100% AMD being a little too greedy and blaming it on ROM sizes... come on just use a larger ROM chip for your +$300 motherboard. Also i havent heard about such limitation on 400 series... 400 series bios updates for 3000 series are rolling in and im yet to see a warning about dropping 1st gen support.

 

[gdansk]

Do AMD chips have an adjustable "TDP"? I'd like to run the 3900X at 95W if possible.

 

[Arkaign]

I would argue the botching started in 2009, when they turned down Apple for making iPhone chips. All those many billions that went to foundries like Samsung and now TSMC could have been Intel's instead. The foundries would still be behind, and Intel would have had more R&D money. Though they likely would have stagnated anyway, because when you have a lead you milk it. At least in Intel's world.

That's all true. We've even seen AMD do their own version of sitting on their hands with Athlon 64/Opteron/X2. Basically all extremely iterative at best for several years, with up to $1k desktop SKUs and high prices overall all the way through Conroe launch.

This time around, Intel got Conroed lol.

 

[maddie]

Yep. It's one of the more irritating things about standard market factors in publicly traded corporations.

If product and sales is superior : stagnation and profiteering

If product and sales are under pressure :
suddenly they refocus on increasing the quality and appeal of their products

They're a big lumbering organization though, and these things take time to implement. It's not like making a burger or a car, where much simpler overhauls can bring you from last to first with resources and known quantities. It takes lengthy planning and execution in things that almost never exist in the planning stages.

Now they're definitely not starting from zero, but they should recognize that they're facing existential risk unless they can fix their fabrication tech and execution.

Their 10nm is ~7nm basically, but late late late. They would not be in such doodoo if they hadn't botched the last half decade. They just didn't notice so much because they were soaking in easy profits all this time. Even now they're still massively ahead in market share, but investors don't like seeing precipitous declines, and I'd absolutely sell Intel short the next 6-18 months, following their actual ability to run volume at 10nm for large dies and whether their 7nm (5nm equal) is on any kind of track.

This is when the passionate talented CEO can make a huge difference. Huang at Nvidia is exactly like this and I think Lisa Su is also.

Strangely enough, roles have reversed. Grove at Intel was of that caliber, while Ruiz at AMD was the opposite.

It's like Royal rule. When you have a great king, they can cut through the bureaucracy and speedily implement changes. Of course the disastrous exact opposite can happen with a poor ruler. If she stays, expect more of the same leadership. By the way, money while necessary for R&D is way overrated as the sole or even main ingredient. An adequately funded, small, talented team can do previously unimagined wonders. I've seen it happen in other fields. Genius & passion goes a very long way.

Intel is like what IBM became. The perfect corporate partner, attractively boringly predictable for the fortune 500 CEOs and hedge fund investors. I'm not a young person, but it's obvious that a lot of legacy CEO types even though they try to speak the language, are clueless to the speed of modern ideas & innovation.

 

[Topweasel]

CS:GO also uses Source 2 though, does it not? It responds much better to Matisse than Dota2.

I was pretty sure nope, but I checked it up anyways. They are using Source. Miles farther along than CS:S or HL2 released as but still just the original Source. Which is why you might see a difference between advancements in performance between them. S2 should be that much different then a highly upgraded Source. But there is the room for differences there.