Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[moinmoin]

The ultra low-end stuff is probably not MCM, but they will not be on the latest node either.

So you consider Van Gogh and Dragon Crest ultra low-end?

 

[DisEnchantment]

AMD hasn't even managed to release Milan-X yet...

They have not released Trento either.
That did not stop Frontier or Azure from acquiring the chips.
The stacked cache is server first, gaming or rather desktop is an afterthought.
When they collected enough defective dies perhaps.

 

[andermans]

Anyway, as per leaks, which seem credible so far, the high end mobile/Mobile Desktop probably will use the desktop Raphael SoCs.
For me I am interested in the Phoenix SoC/5800U replacements.

Wondering though to what extent. e.g. even with earlier Zen parts we see the desktop parts on some "desktop replacement" laptops. Question is whether the Raphael mobile chips would fit in there or more in the 35/45 W TDP. I'm particularly worried about idle power usage.

 

[Joe NYC]

AMD hasn't even managed to release Milan-X yet...

I would be shocked if Genoa is released before SPR.

Milan X is shipping to select hyperscalers, but general availability has not been announced yet.

It does not really matter when the actual general availability announcement takes place, as long as it is at or around the time of Sapphire Rapid announcement.

 

[Ajay]

The stacked cache is server first, gaming or rather desktop is an afterthought.

Yeah, sadly and inevitably, Ryzen desktop was mainly a way to build the Zen ecosystem and reputation. Server is where the big $$s are; all the more so since AMD is capacity constrained.

 

[Gideon]

Zen 5 APU = Strix Point

What? They ran out of artists?

I liked the old codenames particularily the "easter egg" one, Lucenne

 

[andermans]

The entire subject of shipping to hyperscalers is sort of nebulous. Remember that hyperscalers tend to be their own OEMs and get samples of most of the engineering samples along the way. They wouldn't use these for early capacity or anything like that but just for performance tuning and evaluation.

A lot of the modern releases I've seen have sampling of engineering samples for up to a year before release but only production or qualification units for a quarter before release. So it is very possible that the hyperscalers are getting chips for Genoa right now but that it wouldn't be towards any compute demand of the hyperscalers.

 

[Kepler_L2]

So you consider Van Gogh and Dragon Crest ultra low-end?

Yes? It's a super small and cheap SoC.

 

[itsmydamnation]

I think this thread is the perfect example of where the two companies are at. On one hand you have intel who has over the ~3-4 years failed to deliver consistently really talking up its future product stack and then you have AMD that has been amazingly tight lipped. It creates an interesting dynamic when trying to evaluate future positions

 

[moinmoin]

Yes? It's a super small and cheap SoC.

Just confirming. Considering that Van Gogh is better featured than Rembrandt (AV1 decode...).

 

[Kepler_L2]

Just confirming. Considering that Van Gogh is better featured than Rembrandt (AV1 decode...).

It's an older CPU uarch (Zen2), older process node, smaller CPU/GPU, worse I/O (no PCI-E Gen4, no DP 2.0), worse memory controller... It will also be produced for many years and will eventually be found in cheap OEM systems.

 

[moinmoin]

It will also be produced for many years and will eventually be found in cheap OEM systems.

The same was true for Raven Ridge and Picasso before the Athlon line eventually moved to the Dali die. That's why I find it interesting that you appear to see such a clear line between "ultra low-end" and the current mainstream APU line (which reaches well into low budget markets so far) turning into MCM packages.

 

[Saylick]

What? They ran out of artists?

Maybe they had "Pollock" lined up at some point, considering what that product might do to the competition, but HR stepped in and that was the end of that.

 

[moinmoin]

Maybe they had "Pollock" lined up at some point, considering what that product might do to the competition, but HR stepped in and that was the end of that.

Pollock does exist, it's the Raven2/Dali for Chromebooks, like 3015e and 3020e.

[PATCH] drm/amd/display: add Pollock IDs, fix Pollock & Dali clk mgr construct

lists.freedesktop.org

 

[uzzi38]

Just confirming. Considering that Van Gogh is better featured than Rembrandt (AV1 decode...).

Because AMD created it as a high end SoC, not a low end one. Same pricing as Renoir

 

[DisEnchantment]

What? They ran out of artists?

They can take inspiration from their GPU side and use stars.
Then problem solved, there are enough stars in the universe.

 

[quikah]

Milan X is shipping to select hyperscalers, but general availability has not been announced yet.

Source?

 

[Ajay]

They can take inspiration from their GPU side and use stars.
Then problem solved, there are enough stars in the universe.

Short star list: List of proper names of stars - Wikipedia

Not sure if they should use Betelgeuse or Alpha Orionis

 

[jamescox]

Source?

Microsoft has released benchmarks apparently, but I don’t know if there is any information on instance availability yet:

Microsoft Releases Benchmark Tests to Prove AMD EPYC Milan-X CPUs Will Help Shape Their Future

Microsoft has published detailed performance benchmarks of AMD's EPYC Milan-X CPUs that power their latest Azure HBv3 Virtual Machines.

wccftech.com

All they have to do is update the BIOS and swap in the Milan-x processor. I think ServeTheHome mentioned that they are just upgrading the processors on existing instances at the moment.

Edit: ServeTheHome video here says they have been deployed in Microsoft azure cloud for a while:

 

[Hitman928]

Microsoft has released benchmarks apparently, but I don’t know if there is any information on instance availability yet:

Microsoft Releases Benchmark Tests to Prove AMD EPYC Milan-X CPUs Will Help Shape Their Future

Microsoft has published detailed performance benchmarks of AMD's EPYC Milan-X CPUs that power their latest Azure HBv3 Virtual Machines.

wccftech.com

All they have to do is update the BIOS and swap in the Milan-x processor. I think ServeTheHome mentioned that they are just upgrading the processors on existing instances at the moment.

They are available in a Beta program from what I understand.

 

[quikah]

They are available in a Beta program from what I understand.

Yeah, they are not released yet. All the major OEMs have had access for many months, released means in production. They should be out soon.

 

[Joe NYC]

Edit: ServeTheHome video here says they have been deployed in Microsoft azure cloud for a while:

Yes, and Microsoft gave access to Milan X VM to some tech journalists, such as the guy from Phoronix:

"I ended up having early access to the new Milan-X HBv3 instances - and after a busy weekend of testing in preparation for today's announcement - this morning AMD requested that any Milan-X numbers not be published until the formal Q1 launch."
AMD Announces Milan-X 3D V-Cache CPUs, Azure Prepares For Great Upgrade - Phoronix

The preview for customers for access to Milan X VM started as of the day of the announcement.

 

[Hitman928]

Yeah, they are not released yet. All the major OEMs have had access for many months, released means in production. They should be out soon.

I was talking about the Azure VMs with Milan-X though 'preview' may have been a more industry norm term. The cloud providers have had production run Milan-X for some time now.

 

[jamescox]

Yeah, they are not released yet. All the major OEMs have had access for many months, released means in production. They should be out soon.

They have been in production for a long time. Production and released are not the same thing. They have to stockpile a bit of supply be the official release; which means available to OEMs such that you have the possibility of actually buying one.

I suspect these, like everything else, will be in short supply. There will be massive demand for these from a large number of companies, so I think they will be difficult to get. There seems to not be a very good supply of even regular Milan chips. Intel is likely getting a lot of business purely because they have some availability. Some companies are likely upgrading their systems to higher core count intel 14 nm until the supply crunch eases.

I guess we might not get any new Threadrippers for a while. Rumors are saying next year now. AMD will definitely try clear the backlog for Milan in the enterprise market before Threadripper.

 

[ahimsa42]

AMD Next-Gen Ryzen APUs For Laptops: Phoenix-H With 8 Zen 4 Cores & Raphael-H With 16 Zen 4 Cores

AMD's next-generation Ryzen APUs for high-performance laptops will include the Zen 4 powered Phoenix-H and Raphael-H family.

wccftech.com