Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[dnavas]

https://www.amd.com/en/product/12151

IGP has 2 CUs. Should still be plenty for 2D but you won't be gaming on it, even old games. I wonder if it has the encoders.

Encoders included, though we don't know which ones (covered in the PC World video above). Hopefully AMF with B-frame support. It's at least /close/ to QuickSync. What's really going to make or break it is whether anyone is going to support it.

 

[maddie]

It's not the base level price, it's just the high entry level price to an overall costly new platform still to be launched with costly new memory and (if consequently taking PCIe 5 NVMe) costly new storage. Over time there will be cheaper products.

But as Zen 3 already has shown if faced with the question of supplying low margin mass market or high margin specialist markets AMD will pick the latter, happily leaving the former to Intel which is still more competent at creating true mass market products in high quantity. Will be interesting to see how that plays out this round with AMD already publicly stating that supply won't be an issue this time.

(I don't see how any of that relates to monopolies though. It was and is a duopoly, and a rather healthy one at that.)

I'm going to disagree here.

I suggest that the only reason that AMD went for margin at the expense of marketshare was their constrained production capacity. Once any business can produce at will they will be forced to go for volume. There is no other option if you want to grow revenue.

By their own admission, wafer availability is no longer a limit.

What will they do? Force customers to buy at the price they want? Intel offering a worthy competitor in a time of economic sorrow tells me that we're going to be seeing major price drops by Q1 2023 and all who say the margins must be maintained at all costs are simply delusional. There are companies that will just want to survive. Just surviving with 0% profits will be considered acceptable to many.

A few months ago I started writing on the coming troubles especially for our European colleagues. More are starting to appreciate the situation, but we're only now starting to slide. By December, it should be mainstream.

If you read directly from institutions and not what the idiotic press reports you'll have a much better idea on the current state of economic affairs. Its terrible.

Remember the joke about the guy who jumped off the building and thought he was flying until the splat? That's most of us now.

 

[CakeMonster]

Single Rank 2DPC - 3600 MT/s. Ouch - that's worse than Alder Lake.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-9-7950x

Looks like those who want more than 32 GB are out of luck as far as memory OC is concerned.

You can get 2x32GB (and you should), there's no reason to go with 4 sticks given what we've learned in the last couple of years.

 

[CakeMonster]

Probably, or one is desktop and the other mobile. Zen4 in the same slide is represented as N5 and N4, and the rumors say that while top end and laptop is based on what we saw yesterday (N5) low end/U series may be N4.

I feel its too early to count on everything working out for Z5 on desktop to be N3, and they've given themselves an out anyway. Z3 redesign proved to be impressive on the same process as Z2 also ofc.

 

[Asterox]

Encoders included, though we don't know which ones (covered in the PC World video above). Hopefully AMF with B-frame support. It's at least /close/ to QuickSync. What's really going to make or break it is whether anyone is going to support it.

It is VCN 3.1 version, or same as in Rembrandt APU with RDNA2 iGPU.Quite logical, if iGPU is RDNA2 tech what else would you use but the encoder used in the standard RDNA2 APU.

 

[CakeMonster]

The price 'cut' on the 16c part 7950X is probably adjusted for the competition having a lot more cores in the last 2 years, but you have to wonder if its also because of an upcoming 7950X3D which might give the income of a high priced part still.

I wish we just could get confirmation if there will be a 7950X3D, because I'd want to wait for that, and everything points to X3D parts arriving sooner than on Z3 (given RL competition, and V-Cache being more mature now).

 

[Det0x]

*nevermind

 

[Kaluan]

Single Rank 2DPC - 3600 MT/s. Ouch - that's worse than Alder Lake.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-9-7950x

Looks like those who want more than 32 GB are out of luck as far as memory OC is concerned.

You know one of the biggest, but often not even mentioned improvements of DDR5 over DDR4 is quadrupling (or more) in density per memory chip, right?
There's this thing called 2x32GB, available like, right now. With 64GB DIMMs likely not far off from mainstream appearances.

Alder Lake users aren't going to upgrade to Raptor Lake, true, but don't just assume that the only ones interested in Raptor Lake are those running Alder Lake. On the Intel side, most people do not upgrade the CPU alone - platform upgrades are the norm for the majority.

13th gen will be the undisputed king in the sub-$300 market though. For perf/$, Intel has AMD beat in the mainstream market, because of lower platform cost, DDR4 and E-core spam as some like to call it.

1. No competition at $100 vs i3 12100
2. 12600K currently at $239 that gives higher ST and MT vs the 5600X at $200
3. At the $300 range i7 12700F is currently at $320 that decimates the $260 5700X in both gaming and MT workloads.

Plus socket 1700 platform has higher upgradability (Raptor Lake), AM4 is dead socket.

So in October the new Ryzen 7600X at $299 will have to compete against AL 6+4 at $200 (13400). 13400 system will be even cheaper because the platform also supports DDR4.

So it comes down to this, 7600X at $299 will have to compete against i7 13xxx and not i5s when adding the cost of the platform and DDR5 memory.
And again at the sub $200 range AMD will have no answer against Intel, unless they will cut prices and make 5700X compete at the $200-220 segment. Which again will have hard time compete in gaming against the $200-220 Intel CPUs.

And good luck finding a cheap B650 motherboard this year.

Holy Strawman, there's so much fud and make-believe in this post I don't even know were to start.

- I can buy a 5800X for 275 GBP right now, 12600K is 285 GBP (cheapest prices right now here)... so uhm, what?
- You won't be able to buy anything of the sort in October, non-K 13th gen comes out next year.
- They're based on the same silicon as ADL and will very likely have higher retail prices than 12th gen ones as well. So let's no pretend like they're some uber trump card Intel has, we've all seen how that played out already.
- "7600X will have to compete against i7 137xx" WAT... seriously... WHAT?

Finding cheap B650 mobos *this year* is a concern, but the fact that there will be no 13400 this year isn't 😂
Can you be MORE biased?

I like how some people can just go "AM4 is a dead end platform" and then just go on praising Socket 1700/13th gen within the next breath. Particularly when they recommend the obviously inferior DDR4 version of Socket 1700 as a budget option as well.

 

[MarkPost]

According to endnotes https://www.amd.com/en/corporate/ryzen-7000-claims this is with CB23 MT.

So if I dont miss something and keeping n mine 5950X scores 26000-27000 (105W TDP, 142W PPT) this means 7950X consuming up to 142W reachs ~36000-37000. Thats impressive.

 

[biostud]

The price 'cut' on the 16c part 7950X is probably adjusted for the competition having a lot more cores in the last 2 years, but you have to wonder if its also because of an upcoming 7950X3D which might give the income of a high priced part still.

I wish we just could get confirmation if there will be a 7950X3D, because I'd want to wait for that, and everything points to X3D parts arriving sooner than on Z3 (given RL competition, and V-Cache being more mature now).

Let's hope we'll know same day as RPL launches

 

[Vope45]

Let's hope we'll know same day as RPL launches

Don't bother. Both amd and intel already know their counterpart performance. and therefore have already priced in these chips accordingly.

Look at the recent canadian pricing leaks for both camps and be smug about how you are faster than all the twitter leakers in regards to actual performance

 

[tamz_msc]

- I can buy a 5800X for 275 GBP right now, 12600K is 285 GBP (cheapest prices right now here)... so uhm, what?

Yeah, we've gone over this - the 12600K is faster for most consumer workloads, especially if your workflow involves the Adobe suite, even with DDR4.

You won't be able to buy anything of the sort in October, non-K 13th gen comes out next year.

One can buy discounted 12th gen in the meantime. It's not as if 12th gen will magically disappear after 13th gen launch.

"7600X will have to compete against i7 137xx" WAT... seriously... WHAT?

He's wrong about 7600X competing against Raptor Lake i7, but the 7600X will definitely be competing against Alder Lake i7 + DDR4.

i7 12700K = $370 + Decent Z690 DDR4 mobo = $200 + OK 3200 CL16 32 GB DDR4 = $120. Total = $690.
R5 7600X = $300 + Decent B650 motherboard = $200 + OK 5200 CL40 32 GB DDR5 = $170. Total = $670.

 

[biostud]

Don't bother. Both amd and intel already know their counterpart performance. and therefore have already priced in these chips accordingly.

Look at the recent canadian pricing leaks for both camps and be smug about how you are faster than all the twitter leakers in regards to actual performance

I was thinking about the announcement of 3D cache models.

 

[moinmoin]

I'm going to disagree here.

What exactly were you disagreeing with? You offered a different point of view (I didn't touch on the current economic environment at all), but I found no disagreement.

 

[nicalandia]

September 15th Release date?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1537824618613833728

View attachment 63224

This leak was spot on

 

[Joe NYC]

The price 'cut' on the 16c part 7950X is probably adjusted for the competition having a lot more cores in the last 2 years, but you have to wonder if its also because of an upcoming 7950X3D which might give the income of a high priced part still.

I wish we just could get confirmation if there will be a 7950X3D, because I'd want to wait for that, and everything points to X3D parts arriving sooner than on Z3 (given RL competition, and V-Cache being more mature now).

If, according to rumors, Zen 4 V-Cache is introduced around the time of Raptor Lake launch (late September) they will announce expected availability. So, you will know soon enough...

 

[nicalandia]

I found this on the web... How Accurate would this be?



How long did AMD spent on the Rear-view Mirror Pat?

So as it stands the best Intel is going to bring till 2024 is the 13900KS right? So 7950X3D will reign supreme till late 2024.

 

[shady28]

i7 12700K = $370 + Decent Z690 DDR4 mobo = $200 + OK 3200 CL16 32 GB DDR4 = $120. Total = $690.
R5 7600X = $300 + Decent B650 motherboard = $200 + OK 5200 CL40 32 GB DDR5 = $170. Total = $670.

That setup would actually be really bad. I've looked and looked at DDR4 vs DDR5 and really, if you get DDR5-5200 you are just paying more for the same performance vs say DDR4-3600 C16.

i.e. if you stick DDR5-5200 onto Zen 4, you can probably just go ahead and lop 10% off half or more of their benchmarks. On the Intel side, this will result in a system that performs below that of a mid grade DDR4-3600 C16 rig.

There's also no guarantee that the IMC on a Zen 4 will even work at DDR5-6000, since it is officially rated for 5200.

If you follow posts over on overclock.net alder lake memory OC threads, I'd guess about 20% of Alder Lake will not do DDR5-6000 as well. Raptor Lake is supposed to be rated for DDR5-5600 though.

 

[MarkPost]

According to endnotes https://www.amd.com/en/corporate/ryzen-7000-claims this is with CB23 MT.

So if I dont miss something and keeping n mine 5950X scores 26000-27000 (105W TDP, 142W PPT) this means 7950X consuming up to 142W reachs ~36000-37000. Thats impressive.

forgot to add that this 36000-37000 score, consuming up to 142W, would be running at ~5.1GHz ALL CORE

 

[Abwx]

forgot to add that this 36000-37000 score, consuming up to 142W, would be running at ~5.1GHz ALL CORE

Those comparisons are surely made at a strict TDP rating as displayed in the graph, that s why some numbers seems hugely favourable to the 7950X, FI at 65W the 7950X has about 20% more power (10W) devoted to the cores, hence the 74% better score at isopower for the whole SKU.

At 105W the 5950X cores get about 90W while the 7950X ones have about 98W power budget, and "only" 37% better perf at same power.

Edit : CB score at 142W for a 7950X should be around 34-35K

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

That s accurate, one slide is a 5950X/7950X comparison while the other, with 62% lower power or 59% higher perf, is the average for the whole stack from 5600X to 5950X in respect of 7600X to 7950X.

It's 49% not 59% higher performance.
I am reading the footnotes RPL-014 for that slide, and It says It's 7950x vs 5950x in CB R23.

 

[inf64]

7600X already spotted in GB5 database: https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryz...en-tested-with-geekbench-40-faster-than-5600x

12600K vs baseline 7600X, pretty impressive for 12T vs 16T

Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D25 vs Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D69 - Geekbench

Edit:
ST boost on 7600X is 5.4Ghz . PBO2 in action with free +100Mhz over rated stock ST turbo

 

[shady28]

It's 49% not 59% higher performance.
I am reading the footnotes RPL-014 for that slide, and It says It's 7950x vs 5950x in CB R23.

I'm sorry but there seem to be an awful lot of typos in the specs they listed. I haven't even looked at but two of them, one says they used a 12900K with AMD EXPO timings (Zen 4 specific) and now this one says they used DDR4-3600C30 on the 5900X.

 

[Abwx]

It's 49% not 59% higher performance.
I am reading the footnotes RPL-014 for that slide, and It says It's 7950x vs 5950x in CB R23.

That was a typo but we re talking of the same slide, this one :

Even if the slide notes say that its a 5950X the slide itself say "5000 series", wich imply that it s an average of the whole lines, if it was only about the 5950X then there would be 49% somewhere in the other slide :

 

[nicalandia]

Should be noted Zen4 doesn't actually have 512-bit width registers, it is actually just two 256-bit width registers.
View attachment 65358
It should be done like this.

Zen2-esque mode for AVX512 (FP0/1 + FP2/3 + FP4/5 :: 3-pipes for AVX512)
or
Zen3-esque mode for AVX256 (FP0 + FP1 + FP2 + FP3 + FP4 + FP5 :: 6-pipes for AVX256)

Zen4c cuts off the second FPU unit and runs AVX512 like AVX256 in Zen1.

Decoder = Full Decode of AVX512
NSQ = Splits AVX512 into AVX512_L0 to Scheduler0 and AVX512_HI to Scheduler1.
Zen4 FPU's Store0 and Store1 can operate simultaneous to store full 512-bit width.

There is no power penalty from AVX512. Since, it is just using the existing AVX256 units that were improved from Zen3. There is no penalty for mixing AVX256 and AVX512.

There is no 2x512-bit register.
There is no 12 FPU units.

Family 19h only has
3 FP Pipes of 256-bit width per PRF+Cluster.
2x128-bit Registers (6 FP pipes only)
2xStores (Last FP pipe in each FPU cluster)

This guy had it right all the time...

AMD Zen3 AVX256 and 500 KiB L2 74mm2 CCD
AMD Zen4 AVX512 and 1 MiB L2 71mm2 CCD