Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[shady28]

You've clearly missed that: https://www.techpowerup.com/297736/...at-applies-zen-4-ddr5-6000-sweetspot-settings

Btw, limiting access to your profile wasn't a great idea because I was still able to find this "gem" of yours:

You've clearly missed that Zen 4 is not rated for anything past DDR5-5200. This is a fact.

AMD also recommended DDR4-3800 for Zen 3, and many could not hit that as their IF wouldn't go to 1900. Or probably, you didn't know that, because you're just ignorant that way right.

I think you'll find that 'gem' of mine is in fact true.

Since you posted it out of context, here's a reminder that the 7600X needs to compete in widely used applications like Adobe Photoshop, Lightroom, Visual Studio 2019 / CLANG, and Premiere Pro.

You know, stuff people actually recognize the name of because people actually USE. As opposed to something like V-Ray.

But go ahead and enjoy for the moment. There's a reason there is an embargo for the next month, where only AMDs released "information" is available. [Image link deleted]


Personal insults are not allowed in the tech forums.

AT Mod Usandthem

 

[eek2121]

7950X @ geekbench: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/16969227

impressive.

 

[Markfw]

AMD did not say +49% performance at the same power vs the 5000 series. They have a chart with numbers at various TDPs. Moreover, the last 60W will get comparatively little performance, as always.

See the first picture of the slide in post 8403 AS I SAID. It says exactly that.

 

[nicalandia]

7950X @ geekbench: https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/16969227

impressive.

Sweet Baby Jesus....!!!

 

[Exist50]

See the first picture of the slide in post 8403 AS I SAID. It says exactly that.

It seems like it's a SKU difference, but I agree it's confusingly presented.

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

What's also impressive is Zen 4 die size, it is much smaller than Intel, combined with 5nm yields will be excellent.

Really?
Raptor Lake 8P16E is 257mm2
Zen 4 16C is 122 + 72 + 72 = 266mm2

 

[Zucker2k]

Geekbench ST analysis between 12900KS and 7600X, AES excluded.

Text Compression	1635​	2060​	0.79
Image Compression	2049​	2046​	1.00
Navigation	1683​	1679​	1.00
HTML5	1833​	1766​	1.04
SQLite	1812​	1709​	1.06
PDF Rendering	1943​	1653​	1.18
Text Rendering	1960​	1820​	1.08
Clang	1794​	1928​	0.93
Camera	1822​	1638​	1.11
N-Body Physics	1986​	2193​	0.91
Rigid Body Physics	1966​	1960​	1.00
Gaussian Blur	1949​	2323​	0.84
Face Detection	2155​	2121​	1.02
Horizon Detection	1764​	1720​	1.03
Image Inpainting	3582​	3853​	0.93
HDR	3629​	3928​	0.92
Ray Tracing	2625​	2507​	1.05
Structure from Motion	1784​	1580​	1.13
Speech Recognition	1864​	1959​	0.95
Machine Learning	1605​	1787​	0.90
Average			0.99
12900KS ran at slightly higher peak clock (5461 vs 5394; 0.987x factor)
IPC excluding AES: 0.99 x 0.987 = 0.977 or ~ 2% lower IPC than Zen 4

This fits perfectly with AMD's 13% number, as Golden Cove has ~11% higher IPC than Zen 3 according to Ian's deep dive article and ComputerBase average ST chart (normalized for clockspeed)

Good job on the effort. I wish you'd use data with two identical Operating Systems, though.

 

[Markfw]

We have confirmation twice over. 170W TDP, 230W PPT. Consistent across this presentation and comments directly from AMD's chief of marketing.

And I said "something does not add up here", I was not denying it. I am asking for reasons for the disparity I see here.

 

[CakeMonster]

I merged the supposed 7950X with the 12900KS comparison link from earlier:

Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D30 vs ASUS System Product Name - Geekbench

 

[Markfw]

Really?
Raptor Lake 8P16E is 257mm2
Zen 4 16C is 122 + 72 + 72 = 266mm2

Well, Raptor Lake is 24c,32t where Zen4 is 16c,32t to make it even more confusing. But at least they both have IGPU's. The question, is, how good are those, and how does that contribute to area ?

 

[nicalandia]

I merged the supposed 7950X with the 12900KS comparison link from earlier:

Micro-Star International Co., Ltd. MS-7D30 vs ASUS System Product Name - Geekbench

Very Impressive to say the least. One thing I am noticing is that the Crypto Score is just doubling(from 7,000 to 12,000) from ST to MT. That has got to be a Bug or something. On Genoa they are killing it. Perhaps the it's the 12 Channel vs Dual Channel difference?






I will do the comparison with the 13900K that is boosting to 5.8 Ghz

 

[nicalandia]

Retail 7950X vs Retail 13900K Geekbench Windows 11

Z690 Taichi vs ASUS System Product Name - Geekbench

browser.geekbench.com

 

[Markfw]

Retail 7950X vs Retail 13900K Geekbench Windows 11

Z690 Taichi vs ASUS System Product Name - Geekbench

browser.geekbench.com

View attachment 66820

Well, what memory speed are the 2 using ? And of course this is one test. The benchmarks of these 2, including power usage, heat and more, are going to be very interesting in a month !

 

[nicalandia]

Well, what memory speed are the 2 using ? And of course this is one test. The benchmarks of these 2, including power usage, heat and more, are going to be very interesting in a month !

Both at Stock..

If they are trading blows at Geekbench, this clearly confirms that AMD will take the gaming lead, no doubt about it. I mean the 7600X is already on par with 5800X3D and ahead of the 12900K. So the 5950X will surely be the Gaming King

 

[tamz_msc]

Both at Stock..

If they are trading blows at Geekbench, this clearly confirms that AMD will take the gaming lead, no doubt about it. I mean the 7600X is already on par with 5800X3D and ahead of the 12900K. So the 5950X will surely be the Gaming King

It's premature to call Zen 4 the gaming king when we know that over a sample of 40 games, the 5800X3D essentially ties the 12900K. Don't just go by AMD's gaming numbers.

 

[Zucker2k]

Retail 7950X vs Retail 13900K Geekbench Windows 11

Z690 Taichi vs ASUS System Product Name - Geekbench

browser.geekbench.com

View attachment 66820

Well, well, well. The difference should be even higher without crypto score. What clocks are those at?

 

[tamz_msc]

You've clearly missed that Zen 4 is not rated for anything past DDR5-5200. This is a fact.

Neither is Alder Lake rated for anything above DDR5-4800. Yet with the right kit and motherboard, it can do DDR5-6800, provided you won the silicon lottery.

 

[nicalandia]

It's premature to call Zen 4 the gaming king when we know that over a sample of 40 games, the 5800X3D essentially ties the 12900K. Don't just go by AMD's gaming numbers.

Lets put it this way. AMD Look our 5800X3D is 5% higher than 12900K, in real benchmarks they are more or less a match... AMD, Hey look our 7600X beat the 12900K by 5%, they will basically match when reviews are out.....

That will leave the 7950X the new gaming King.

 

[nicalandia]

Well, well, well. The difference should be even higher without crypto score. What clocks are those at?

Thats the weird thing.. GB is not taking much advantage of the Crypto Score for Zen4, who knows why. Perhaps a beta bios or something.

 

[Abwx]

It's premature to call Zen 4 the gaming king when we know that over a sample of 40 games, the 5800X3D essentially ties the 12900K. Don't just go by AMD's gaming numbers.

13% IPC improvement in 7 ZIP is indicative of Integer perf improvement, with the frequency uplift this translate by 29% better INT perf for the 7600X vs 5600X and 7950X vs 5950X, this should show in apps like games, and more importantly for servers loads.

 

[tamz_msc]

Lets put it this way. AMD Look our 5800X3D is 5% higher than 12900K, in real benchmarks they are more or less a match... AMD, Hey look our 7600X beat the 12900K by 5%, they will basically match when reviews are out.....

That will leave the 7950X the new gaming King.

Aren't you discounting Raptor Lake?

 

[tamz_msc]

13% IPC improvement in 7 ZIP is indicative of Integer perf improvement, with the frequency uplift this translate by 29% better INT perf for the 7600X vs 5600X and 7950X vs 5950X, this should show in apps like games, and more importantly for servers loads.

Games scale completely different to applications. 29% faster ST doesn't mean 29% faster in games.

 

[Det0x]

Retail 7950X vs Retail 13900K Geekbench Windows 11

Z690 Taichi vs ASUS System Product Name - Geekbench

browser.geekbench.com

View attachment 66820

13900k results from the "360 AIO" leak which turned out to be a chiller ?
Now we know the reason for Intel's new 350w power limit by default on most performance motherboards that will be used in reviews.. Its what's needed to ~match a stock 7950x in GB5

 

[tamz_msc]

13900k results from the "360 AIO" leak which turned out to be a chiller ?
Now we know the reason for Intel's new 350w power limit by default on most performance motherboards that will be used in reviews.. Its what's needed to ~match a stock 7950x in GB5

There is no 350W power limit. That was a result of someone playing with motherboard settings to get 40,000 pts in Cinebench R23 multithread.

 

[rainy]

You've clearly missed that Zen 4 is not rated for anything past DDR5-5200. This is a fact.

AMD also recommended DDR4-3800 for Zen 3, and many could not hit that as their IF wouldn't go to 1900. Or probably, you didn't know that, because you're just ignorant that way right.

No, you're wrong again, majority of Zen 3 owners could use DDR4-3600/3800, some even DDR4-4000.
You'll see the same scenario with Zen 4 as well, despite it's AMD just first gen with DDR5 support.

Officially Zen 3 support only up to DDR-3200 because it's an JEDEC standard.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-ryzen-5-5600x

Since you posted it out of context, here's a reminder that the 7600X needs to compete in widely used applications like Adobe Photoshop, Lightroom, Visual Studio 2019 / CLANG, and Premiere Pro.

You know, stuff people actually recognize the name of because people actually USE. As opposed to something like V-Ray.

I think, it's not quite fair, if you want to see comparison of 7600x vs13900K in those programs./s