Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[.vodka]

Lovely results, as expected. Even considering the increased power usage to make it happen, it's impressive.

Golden Cove seems so wasteful in comparison, much like Ice lake / Tiger Lake vs Zen3. Much larger structures overall but lackluster results.

There's this interview with Mike Clark that comes to mind, when asked about Zen4 he treats it business as usual, but when asked about the further future and Zen5 he can't stop giggling like a teenager that wants to spill the beans on something amazing but can't. I wonder what they have in store for us with Zen5...

I think there will be some nice surprises on real world benchmarks and usage when reviews go live on the 26th. Go AMD!

 

[tamz_msc]

Wait, suddenly AVX512 is relevant again?

 

[nicalandia]

I wonder what they have in store for us with Zen5..

As impressive and outstanding Zen5 will be(Many sources have said that many times), Zen5 was designed complete years ago(Someone at the top spilled the beans that they were working on that desing).

I want to know what are they working on NOW that will be release in 6 years.

 

[nicalandia]

Wait, suddenly AVX512 is relevant again?

It is when it's being implemented by AMD and will be freely available on all of their product stack and not segmented by greedy Intel.

 

[.vodka]

As impressive and outstanding Zen5 will be(Many sources have said that many times), Zen5 was designed complete years ago(Someone at the top spilled the beans that they were working on that desing).

I want to know what are they working on NOW that will be release in 6 years.

I know. Amazing stuff!

I think there won't be any shortage of x86 innovation for the foreseeable future with this AMD.

I fear TSMC hitting a roadblock on future nodes like Intel did with 10nm stalling progress more than anything.

Anyway. I need leaks now. Come on reviewers, throw us a bone!

 

[igor_kavinski]

Intel working right now to re-enable AVX-512 on all Golden Cove cores via microcode update <<<< agree/disagree?

 

[Markfw]

Intel working right now to re-enable AVX-512 on all Golden Cove cores via microcode update <<<< agree/disagree?

I did no bios updates to my 12700 with e-cores disabled, so I still have it.

 

[nicalandia]

Intel working right now to re-enable AVX-512 on all Golden Cove cores via microcode update <<<< agree/disagree?

Early Release ADL CPUs, even the Lowly Celerons had AVX anabled because they lacked e-cores, but now they are just fusing the ports with a Laser Beam.

 

[Hitman928]

Intel working right now to re-enable AVX-512 on all Golden Cove cores via microcode update <<<< agree/disagree?

How would that work when e-cores don't have AVX512?

 

[nicalandia]

Intel is not bringing back AVX-512 to main stream CPUs

Intel is Now Fusing Off AVX-512 support in Alder Lake CPUs

If you have already bought a 12th gen Intel Alder Lake CPU, you could be sitting on a collectors item, as according to Tom's Hardware, Intel is now fusing off AVX-512 support in production. It's possible this could be in preparation for the arrival of the Core "W" series of CPUs that might be...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[Saylick]

That's what I was thinking! Is there anything this CPU can't do???

The only thing it can't do is be at the top of Userbenchmark.

 

[tamz_msc]

It is when it's being implemented by AMD and will be freely available on all of their product stack and not segmented by greedy Intel.

AVX-512 has been available now for a while, and with much wider adoption than Zen 4 will ever manage. Besides that, AVX-512 in no silver bullet for performance, so why are some benchmarks in SiSoft Sandra, of all things, being taken as an indication that Zen 4 is so hopelessly ahead of Intel that they'll never catch up?

 

[Markfw]

AVX-512 has been available now for a while, and with much wider adoption than Zen 4 will ever manage. Besides that, AVX-512 in no silver bullet for performance, so why are some benchmarks in SiSoft Sandra, of all things, being taken as an indication that Zen 4 is so hopelessly ahead of Intel that they'll never catch up?

Well, I reserve judgement until the real reviews come out next week. But all indications are that it will win in everything. And I don't see that changing with Raptor lake either.

 

[nicalandia]

Intel is done with AVX-512 at the mainstream segment.

Is AVX-512 Fused Off on Alder Lake Client Products?

AVX-512 will be fused off on Alder Lake.

www.intel.com

 

[nicalandia]

New Geekbench5 entry for the 7900X

Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd. X670E AORUS MASTER - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd. X670E AORUS MASTER with an AMD Ryzen 9 7900X processor.

browser.geekbench.com

This one is exactly the number AMD posted on their Ryzen 7000 announcement

 

[igor_kavinski]

How would that work when e-cores don't have AVX512?

Oh, the old Scroll Lock button press to disable E-cores within Windows so you can use your P-cores comfortably, trick

 

[igor_kavinski]

Intel is done with AVX-512 at the mainstream segment.
View attachment 67901

Is AVX-512 Fused Off on Alder Lake Client Products?

AVX-512 will be fused off on Alder Lake.

www.intel.com

They are saying "most desktop products" so there might still be hope left for the K series.

 

[Hitman928]

Oh, the old Scroll Lock button press to disable E-cores within Windows so you can use your P-cores comfortably, trick

Not a realistic solution.

 

[nicalandia]

They are saying "most desktop products" so there might still be hope left for the K series.

 

[Hitman928]

Wait, suddenly AVX512 is relevant again?

AVX512 is still very niche, especially in the consumer space. Performance numbers with AVX512 support is interesting from an academic perspective but from a real world impact, it is meaningless unless you are part of that very small niche that can actually use it.

 

[tamz_msc]

Well, I reserve judgement until the real reviews come out next week. But all indications are that it will win in everything. And I don't see that changing with Raptor lake either.

That is such a contradictory statement. You've already declared that Zen 4 will win in everything, because of the leaks, and yet you say you'll reserve judgment till reviews are out?

What Zen 4 CPU will win in everything? Are you talking about 7950X vs 13900K? 7900X vs 13700K? 7700X, 7600X vs 13600K? The way I see it, AMD has absolutely no chance of winning with the 6 and 8 core variants especially if the 13600K ends up below $350.

 

[nicalandia]

What Zen 4 CPU will win in everything? Are you talking about 7950X vs 13900K? 7900X vs 13700K? 7700X, 7600X vs 13600K? The way I see it, AMD has absolutely no chance of winning with the 6 and 8 core variants especially if the 13600K ends up below $350.

When NDA Lifts and Reviews come in the entire Ryzen 7000 Line Up Will dominate current Intel Skus. No Questions about it.

 

[Markfw]

That is such a contradictory statement. You've already declared that Zen 4 will win in everything, because of the leaks, and yet you say you'll reserve judgment till reviews are out?

What Zen 4 CPU will win in everything? Are you talking about 7950X vs 13900K? 7900X vs 13700K? 7700X, 7600X vs 13600K? The way I see it, AMD has absolutely no chance of winning with the 6 and 8 core variants especially if the 13600K ends up below $350.

Contradictory ? First I said "all indications are" based on leaks, yes. But final judgement, including power usage will come after all the benchmarks are in, and it will be clear who wins what, and how much chance Raptor lake has of that changing.

 

[tamz_msc]

AVX512 is still very niche, especially in the consumer space. Performance numbers with AVX512 support is interesting from an academic perspective but from a real world impact, it is meaningless unless you are part of that very small niche that can actually use it.

Then why are we pretending that all that will suddenly change just because Zen 4 has now adopted it?

 

[Markfw]

Then why are we pretending that all that will suddenly change just because Zen 4 has now adopted it?

First, I think we all agree that currently its niche. HOWEVER, now that it will be more widely available for use, there might be more applications that use it.

And who said "that all that will suddenly change just because Zen 4 has now adopted it"