Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[eek2121]

In what gaming scenario is a RPL going to give you better performance than ADL, if you actually play modern games with high graphics settings?
Sure if you benchmark low settings and low resolution, but once we hit 1440p max graphics settings all zen3, zen4, ADL and probably RPL are within a few percent of each other in performance.

*1440p or higher.

Many will be close, I agree with you there. Except CS:GO of course.🤣

 

[DAPUNISHER]

In what gaming scenario is a RPL going to give you better performance than ADL, if you actually play modern games with high graphics settings?
Sure if you benchmark low settings and low resolution, but once we hit 1440p max graphics settings all zen3, zen4, ADL and probably RPL are within a few percent of each other in performance.

Modern games are using ray tracing more, and some even require the CPU to do work the PS5 has hardware dedicated to. Consequently, not all modern CPUs are the same even at 4K in some of the latest titles. Ray Tracing in Spiderman for instance. At 1440 the gap between CPUs gets bigger, and DDR5 6400 makes a huge difference over DDR4 with the 12900k. It is a preview of what PS5 ports will require of the CPU and bandwidth. New cards are coming, and we will likely see the fastest new CPUs separate themselves from less powerful ones even further. Particularly as new more CPU demanding games continue to be released.

 

[Tuna-Fish]

In what gaming scenario is a RPL going to give you better performance than ADL, if you actually play modern games with high graphics settings?
Sure if you benchmark low settings and low resolution, but once we hit 1440p max graphics settings all zen3, zen4, ADL and probably RPL are within a few percent of each other in performance.

I don't see it as much as Intel vs AMD thing, but as "if you already have an AM4 motherboard that can take a 5800X3D" thing. It just makes no sense for gamers to upgrade to Zen4 until the X3D comes out.

 

[biostud]

*1440p or higher.

Many will be close, I agree with you there. Except CS:GO of course.🤣

Yes, modern games

 

[biostud]

Modern games are using ray tracing more, and some even require the CPU to do work the PS5 has hardware dedicated to. Consequently, not all modern CPUs are the same even at 4K in some of the latest titles. Ray Tracing in Spiderman for instance. At 1440 the gap between CPUs gets bigger, and DDR5 6400 makes a huge difference over DDR4 with the 12900k. It is a preview of what PS5 ports will require of the CPU and bandwidth. New cards are coming, and we will likely see the fastest new CPUs separate themselves from less powerful ones even further. Particularly as new more CPU demanding games continue to be released.

I guess this is what you're referring to: Spider-Man Remastered CPU Benchmark | TechSpot

But my point was that the upgrade from ADL to RPL on the same motherboard with same memory will not make much sense. The difference between 12600K, 12700K and 12900K is less than the switch from DDR4 to DDR5. Would have been interesting to see the 12600K and 12700k with DDR5-6400 as well.

 

[biostud]

I don't see it as much as Intel vs AMD thing, but as "if you already have an AM4 motherboard that can take a 5800X3D" thing. It just makes no sense for gamers to upgrade to Zen4 until the X3D comes out.

I don't understand any gamer who think they need to upgrade their CPU every generation. If you do some kind of work or simply just like to have it as a hobby sure upgrade every time something new come out, but if you are interested in a price conscious approach, then it doesn't make sense.

 

[nicalandia]

Hmm! Might be that AMD is aware of Intel's monolithic 34c Sapphire Rapids-X product and they're acting accordingly? RIP Threadripper 5995wx.

How on Earth does a 34C/68T Sapphire Rapids-X poses any thread to current top of the line ThreadRipper PROs? RIP to a world breaking Record 5950WX that is posting Over 100,000 points on Cinebench R23 without much effort? REALLY?

When you consider how long it took AMD to even get that chip onto the market, moving quickly to a Genoa/Zen4-based Threadripper Pro in under a year would be quite a change in AMD's HEDT policies.

There were no incentive for AMD to release Zen3 based TR PRO on the market, no competition from Intel(still no competition), Selling every chiplet they make into high profit Zen3 EPYC.. But they had Thread Ripper Ready more than a year before release date(The now defunct non-PRO versions). Zen4 based ThreadRipper will be ready by the time EPYC Genoa is ready. It will be a matter of AMD deciding to release that beast or not.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I guess this is what you're referring to: Spider-Man Remastered CPU Benchmark | TechSpot

But my point was that the upgrade from ADL to RPL on the same motherboard with same memory will not make much sense. The difference between 12600K, 12700K and 12900K is less than the switch from DDR4 to DDR5. Would have been interesting to see the 12600K and 12700k with DDR5-6400 as well.

Steve's test is Okay but not great. He just plays Spiderman the walking simulator for like 30 seconds then swings for another 30. It can get much more intense than that. I like to see crowd density and where available, diversity, set to the highest. And real gameplay. Cyberpunk can kneecap many CPUs with RT and max crowd in the busy areas. Civ6, Planet Coaster, sims like that can see big uplifts. Spiderman Miles Morales is out soon. That will be as demanding or more.

I get your point, I do. And I can't tell if 13th is going to be a gaming upgrade over 12th or not. Too many shenanigans surrounding it so far. I just don't want to be bias. 1700 legit has a drop in upgrade coming, seems like brand favoritism to not point that out. And we don't know what the new cards will be able to show either. Looking at performance with what are now older cards may not tell the whole story.

 

[igor_kavinski]

And I can't tell if 13th is going to be a gaming upgrade over 12th or not.

13th gen's increased cache does improve minimum FPS, translating to a smoother, less jerky experience, for those who are sensitive to such things. It may be an upgrade for some but maybe not all of us.

 

[biostud]

Steve's test is Okay but not great. He just plays Spiderman the walking simulator for like 30 seconds then swings for another 30. It can get much more intense than that. I like to see crowd density and where available, diversity, set to the highest. And real gameplay. Cyberpunk can kneecap many CPUs with RT and max crowd in the busy areas. Civ6, Planet Coaster, sims like that can see big uplifts. Spiderman Miles Morales is out soon. That will be as demanding or more.

I get your point, I do. And I can't tell if 13th is going to be a gaming upgrade over 12th or not. Too many shenanigans surrounding it so far. I just don't want to be bias. 1700 legit has a drop in upgrade coming, seems like brand favoritism to not point that out. And we don't know what the new cards will be able to show either. Looking at performance with what are now older cards may not tell the whole story.

Yes it is a possibility to upgrade and lets see when RPL is launched, no reason to argue on speculations. And it also depends on how much improvement you consider important enough to upgrade, it can vary a great deal. Coming from a 5820k, I want feel the difference once I upgrade.

 

[biostud]

Steve's test is Okay but not great. He just plays Spiderman the walking simulator for like 30 seconds then swings for another 30. It can get much more intense than that. I like to see crowd density and where available, diversity, set to the highest. And real gameplay. Cyberpunk can kneecap many CPUs with RT and max crowd in the busy areas. Civ6, Planet Coaster, sims like that can see big uplifts. Spiderman Miles Morales is out soon. That will be as demanding or more.

I get your point, I do. And I can't tell if 13th is going to be a gaming upgrade over 12th or not. Too many shenanigans surrounding it so far. I just don't want to be bias. 1700 legit has a drop in upgrade coming, seems like brand favoritism to not point that out. And we don't know what the new cards will be able to show either. Looking at performance with what are now older cards may not tell the whole story.

Do you have any links to articles that dives into heavy CPU utilization in modern games?

 

[LightningZ71]

I suspect that the 13600K will be a significant upgrade for the price conscious as compared to the 12600K. The cache upgrades impact it quite a bit, doubling the e-cores should help with the background video processing tasks on the newer titles that are aware of them, and the higher clock speeds overall for the main threads will be notable.

 

[nicalandia]

5.6 Ghz All Core OC kicking all sorts of behinds...!

AMD Ryzen 5 7600X im Test: Fragwürdig hohe TDP vereint mit bester Effizienz [UPDATE mit OC/Eco-Mode]

Auf dieser Seite beschäftigen wir uns mit dem Tuning und der spannenden Effizienz des 7600X und klären im Fazit, ob sich die Wahl für den kleinsten Zen-4-Prozessor als richtig herausstellt oder Sie lieber zu den größeren Varianten greifen sollten.

www.pcgameshardware.de

 

[deasd]

Zen4 X3D confirmed by roadmap, but without exact date. Dunno how old this photo is.

Leaked AMD desktop CPU roadmap confirms Ryzen 7000 X3D series - VideoCardz.com

AMD Ryzen 7000 series to be offered alongside Ryzen 5000, Ryzen 7000X3D confirmed AMD has supposedly provided an update to its channel partners on its desktop roadmap. The alleged roadmap, posted by sebuhsarang on Twitter, shows 2022-2023 Ryzen series and their expected product lifespan. The...

videocardz.com

 

[igor_kavinski]

View attachment 68493

That graph shows the staggering effort required to overcome V-cache freak CPU

 

[inf64]

That graph shows the staggering effort required to overcome V-cache freak CPU

Zen 4 with Vcache will be the undisputed king of gaming workloads for years to come.

 

[nicalandia]

Zen 4 with Vcache will be the undisputed king of gaming workloads for years to come.

Unless the Zen5 brings 6Ghz speeds and 30+ IPC performance.

 

[inf64]

Unless the Zen5 brings 6Ghz speeds and 30+ IPC performance.

Well years to come is ~2+ years , I anticipated Ryzen 8000 with Vcache to undoubtedly take the crown sometime in 2024.

 

[maddogmcgee]

*1440p or higher.

Many will be close, I agree with you there. Except CS:GO of course.🤣

The bottleneck for the vast majority of games I play is the CPU (with some ram speed mixed in).

 

[DrMrLordX]

How on Earth does a 34C/68T Sapphire Rapids-X poses any thread to current top of the line ThreadRipper PROs?

If per-core performance on the Sapphire Rapids-X part is superior then there could be a fairly large niche for it. Not everyone wants/needs 64c of Zen3. 34C Raptor Cove would already be a bit overkill. What they're looking for is the expanded memory and connectivity. Otherwise it's Amdahl's Law on parade (as I've mentioned in the various Intel threads when people go on about how good 8c+16c is and how great 8c+32c will be).

That being said, 64c+ Genoa Threadripper would put it out to pasture.

 

[Markfw]

If per-core performance on the Sapphire Rapids-X part is superior then there could be a fairly large niche for it. Not everyone wants/needs 64c of Zen3. 34C Raptor Cove would already be a bit overkill. What they're looking for is the expanded memory and connectivity. Otherwise it's Amdahl's Law on parade (as I've mentioned in the various Intel threads when people go on about how good 8c+16c is and how great 8c+32c will be).

That being said, 64c+ Genoa Threadripper would put it out to pasture.

Actually, 32 core Genoa threadripper would put a 34 core Raptor cove out to pasture.... IMO

 

[DrMrLordX]

Actually, 32 core Genoa threadripper would put a 34 core Raptor cove out to pasture.... IMO

Probably. But 34c will presumably be the top-end part for Sapphire Rapids-X, assuming Intel uses only monolithic dice for that product line. There's a lot we don't know about the product since it was only recently revealed. In any case, top end vs. top end is the most honest comparison.

 

[nicalandia]

Probably. But 34c will presumably be the top-end part for Sapphire Rapids-X, assuming Intel uses only monolithic dice for that product line. There's a lot we don't know about the product since it was only recently revealed. In any case, top end vs. top end is the most honest comparison.

As far as We are Aware, The Top of the line is actually 56C/112T Intel Xeon W9-3495X which is not Monolithic but 4 Tile based.

 

[DrMrLordX]

As far as We are Aware, The Top of the line is actually 56C/112T Intel Xeon W9-3495X which is not Monolithic but 4 Tile based.

That's a Xeon-W though. Not exactly the same product line as Core-X.

 

[nicalandia]

That's a Xeon-W though. Not exactly the same product line as Core-X.

There is no Indication that Intel will further segment their Workstation Line up in "Extreme", It's a pretty safe bet they will continue with their "Expert" Workstation with Sapphire Rapids.

This is the 16C/32T Xeon W5-3433

Details for Result ID Intel(R) Xeon(R) w5-3433 (16C 32T 2GHz, 16x 2MB L2, 45MB L3) (Microsoft HyperV)

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