Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

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Vattila

Senior member
Oct 22, 2004
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Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).



What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!
 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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My 7950X still shows 23W on SoC Power on Windows.

View attachment 69554

AMD started upstreaming new Framework for monitoring now, will start tinkering with it once available, atm Linux SMU KO is not reliable for Zen 4.
Ryzen master, AND I have the -25 negative offset on CO in PBO (whatever that does)
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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would using expo memory change that ? Thats all except the -25 offset that I have changed in BIOS from stock. And I have mine maxed at 100% load as you see, and yours appears idle ??
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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At stock 5200 ram and idling that s 13-14W for the 7600X/7700X and 15-16W for the 7900X/7950X, with DDR6000 the 7950X get at 19-21W depending of the MB and settings.

my settings must do this. so, all told:
DDR5 6000 CL30 EXPO (set in bios)
-25 CO in BIOS
85c max in bios.

Thats it, and I am using 14 watt in SOC.
 

DisEnchantment

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2017
1,687
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At stock 5200 ram and idling that s 13-14W for the 7600X/7700X and 15-16W for the 7900X/7950X, with DDR6000 the 7950X get at 19-21W depending of the MB and settings.
my settings must do this. so, all told:
DDR5 6000 CL30 EXPO (set in bios)
-25 CO in BIOS
85c max in bios.

Thats it, and I am using 14 watt in SOC.
Yeah, yours seem quite low. But for me I see always around 20W similar to @Abwx link.
I have 64 GiB of DDR5-6000CL30 and 3x 980 Pros NVMEs populated. XMP Kits though.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
21,807
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As far as the lapping is concerned: if you have reliable delidding tool, delidding may be safer, assuming you can still maintain mount pressure with your chosen cooler/water block. All those metal shavings are a nightmare to deal with.
 
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A///

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2017
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Very interesting day! Good to see some competition. I'm already skeptical of some reviewers like TPU who have a delicate history of bias against AMD products that's been well documented online going back several years, including some bizarre hardware choices in past reviews. Outside of Intel possibly sending golden samples to reviewers which is likely given that it's Intel, Raptor Lake is what I expected it to be. It's not a bad upgrade if you're on an older Intel platform and prefer Intel. If you use a 12th gen K part with a Z690 motherboard, overclocking will be your goal here.

The 13900K is an excellent choice for those who cannot afford the AM5 platform and don't do much outside gaming and very little to no production. It's an excellent value choice and will surely earn its cred through 2024 when Intel's 14th gen comes out given the very low cost of DDR4 and DDR5 hardware compared to the premium AMD stack. Going forward, I expect future Intel platforms, such as the Z890, unless they abandon that format, to be as expensive as AM5 unless AIBs are subsidized, and Intel isn't in any financial position to undertake such a move. This is due in part to the complexity of a modern motherboard's traces and signal strength that needs to be upheld as we push new technologies as AMD has which drives up costs passed to the end consumer. There is a slight added premium with AMD's AM5 motherboards due to their longevity over the two year lifespan of a socket for Intel. I'm genuinely curious if there will be a pricing war anytime soon. I suspect Intel have little in the way of wiggle room, and any wiggle room available will be on the AMD side as they eat more into Intel's cake in data-center.

As for AMD. They're obviously still the premium product stack here save for their two overpriced lower end processors, the 7600X and 7700X. I do expect the 3D stacked processors to come out within the next 3-4 months, but alas my main gripe will be the price. The main issue with AM5 I'm seeing right now is the boot up times which is being addressed according to my industry contacts at the main motherboard vendors, but it's not the only issue being fixed or improved.

Bottom Line: If you can't afford a high end build or mid-range build on AMD, then Intel is the perfect cheap budget solution. If you only game and do very little production work, then the cheap budget 13600K and 13900K are perfect for you. If you game and do production or production work alone, the higher end AMD SKUs are better for you. Their premium status does make their prices and associated hardware eye watering. I'd hold tight if you're in no rush to see if AMD discounts them between now and post-CES.

Cooling down Intel's new budget solutions is another issue, but I expect some improvement in the near future. The issue mainly affects people who run their hardware in a case, because all these testers will have used an open bench to do their testing.

Relaying back to AMD 3D processors. There's been a wild 5800X3D processor making some headlines recently hitting higher frequencies. I suspect that processor is using the first generation cache on die and that AMD figured out their boost and voltage issue that caused the minor downclock and lockout on the 5800X3D. Though there's always the chance it's a second generation cache design that allows the processor to keep stock boost and voltage, and go even higher.

In such, I do believe Raphael X3D processors to maintain their clocks and stock voltages if not have more headroom. This would dampen whatever minuscule lead Intel has gotten with their toasty new generation. I can only guess when AMD may release their next generation Granite Ridge processors. COVID slowed production down world wide and almost made me redundant. I would not be shocked if AMD released Granite Ridge in 1H24. Is there any confirmation Granite Ridge is the next mainstream desktop processors following Raphael? I don't know of an artist named Granite Ridge. By then I suspect AMD will have anywhere from 4-7 months of sales before Intel releases their 14th gen products. AMD AM5 X770 motherboards will be out and X670 will become a prime choice for the budget conscious offering everything they need. I can't see what X770 would improve on over X670. Perhaps a fellow old fogy would be inclined to enlighten me.

As far as the lapping is concerned: if you have reliable delidding tool, delidding may be safer, assuming you can still maintain mount pressure with your chosen cooler/water block. All those metal shavings are a nightmare to deal with.
Jason (J2C) did a video yesterday or the day before on lapping. He took off less than 1 mm using a tool that Hartung made that clipped the CPU inside of a vinyl resin case. Overall using normal everyday paste (MX-4) he got it to drop down to the 88-90 at peak during Cinebench. Using Hartung's Kryonaut solution it came down more. If you're seeking lower temperatures then delid, but I'm not sure if it's worth doing so chasing after 100 Mhz more boost at stock and chancing it with overclocking.



For now I'll stick with my 10th generation Intel platform which I've come to deeply love. It does everything I want of it. I don't expect to upgrade anytime in the next 5 to 7 years. These recent releases give me nightmares back to running Pentium 4s and I'd rather not touch either chipmakers products at this time. I don't want to deal with very hot Intel systems throttling down and don't want to touch AMD due to cost and whatever bugs may come from AM5. Just the expense of current new parts makes it a tough pill to swallow. Says the person who spent a fortune on their 10th gen due to COVID.
 
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TESKATLIPOKA

Platinum Member
May 1, 2020
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It makes you wonder how an 8 core Rembrandt APU would do at 45 and 65 watts in the same test with the same RAM...
Here is a 45W 6900H.
7700x 45W is still 22% faster while being a chiplet design, but also has more cache. I think I wouldn't even mind If Phoenix has 65W TDP set. At least IGP won't be seriously underclocked as shown in some Computerbase reviews.

Link
 
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RnR_au

Golden Member
Jun 6, 2021
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Though there's always the chance it's a second generation cache design that allows the processor to keep stock boost and voltage, and go even higher.
TSMC reported back in June that their 4th gen of SoIC stacking tech has a much larger working temperature range than the 1st gen which the 5800X3D uses.


Its likely that the 5.5GHz 5800X3D B2 stepping is an ES overclocked to an inch of its life using this 4th gen tech. They can't use an ES with Zen 4 since TSMC hasn't validated N5 on N5 stacking yet.

 

DAPUNISHER

Super Moderator CPU Forum Mod and Elite Member
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Bottom Line: If you can't afford a high end build or mid-range build on AMD, then Intel is the perfect cheap budget solution. If you only game and do very little production work, then the cheap budget 13600K and 13900K are perfect for you.
This must be a language barrier issue. Those are not cheap budget solutions for gaming, not by a long shot.
 

poke01

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2022
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This must be a language barrier issue. Those are not cheap budget solutions for gaming, not by a long shot.
An Xbox console with Gamepass will be enough for 90% of gamers out there or a PS5 at Retail price.
These systems last for 7 years or more. You can get a Xbox series S for $250 now and it sometimes comes with two controllers.

These are affordable gaming devices. No way a 13900K or 13600K is cheap.
 

TESKATLIPOKA

Platinum Member
May 1, 2020
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PC gaming is certainly not cheap. For that you have consoles. But If you want a PC for gaming then Raptor offers better value for money. AMD will have to lower prices for 7600x, 7700x and finally release more affordable motherboards.
 

exquisitechar

Senior member
Apr 18, 2017
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As for AMD. They're obviously still the premium product stack here save for their two overpriced lower end processors, the 7600X and 7700X.
That's half the product stack, and the 7900X is very much not great either. 7950X is really the only appealing Raphael CPU, and the 13900K is still incredibly competitive against it. What makes Raphael the premium product here? AMD clearly wanted it to be, but they didn't deliver premium performance. It's no Vermeer vs Comet Lake/Rocket Lake situation. At similar price points, it has slightly inferior ST performance, significantly lower MT performance, lower gaming performance, worse OC potential, etc. The only thing it has is a rather marginal efficiency lead and AVX-512.
In such, I do believe Raphael X3D processors to maintain their clocks and stock voltages if not have more headroom. This would dampen whatever minuscule lead Intel has gotten with their toasty new generation.
It's not that miniscule at all, most reviewers just don't want to/don't know how to test CPU bound scenarios in games. I think Raphael X3D won't have a significant lead compared to tuned Raptor Lake with fast DDR5, if at all. It also won't be cheap.
 

inf64

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2011
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it has slightly inferior ST performance, significantly lower MT performance, lower gaming performance, worse OC potential, etc. The only thing it has is a rather marginal efficiency lead and AVX-512.
7950X has "significantly lower MT performance"? Umm what? Or you meant 7900X vs 13900K?
 

exquisitechar

Senior member
Apr 18, 2017
666
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7950X has "significantly lower MT performance"? Umm what? Or you meant 7900X vs 13900K?
In general. 13600K is better than the 7600X and 7700X, 13700K is a lot cheaper than the 7900X and not far off in terms of performance. 7950X slightly beats the 13900K in MT performance, but is more expensive. That’s all before platform costs come into play.

I just can’t see much of a reason to get Raphael over Raptor Lake-S, 7950X aside.
 

biostud

Lifer
Feb 27, 2003
18,402
4,965
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In the TPU reviews it says that if you use the Pcie5 nvme, then the PCIe x16 is limited to x8. Does that happens for all motherboards? And does that mean if you use a PCIe nvme5 drive and RTX 4xxx you only get 4.0 x8 in the x16 slot?
 

Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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In general. 13600K is better than the 7600X and 7700X, 13700K is a lot cheaper than the 7900X and not far off in terms of performance. 7950X slightly beats the 13900K in MT performance, but is more expensive. That’s all before platform costs come into play.

I just can’t see much of a reason to get Raphael over Raptor Lake-S, 7950X aside.
power cost and cooling cost and heat. Thats is the biggest difference aside form the 7950x's dominance in MT.
 

Geddagod

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2021
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And upgrade potential. But Intel is anyway quite competitive and better in the low end compared to AMD offerings.
It depends on how often someone upgrades as well, many people hold onto systems for like 5 years, and just get an entirely new system then, instead of upgrading every 1 or 2 years by bits and pieces.
I agree with your conclusion though.
 

maddie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2010
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It depends on how often someone upgrades as well, many people hold onto systems for like 5 years, and just get an entirely new system then, instead of upgrading every 1 or 2 years by bits and pieces.
I agree with your conclusion though.
Is that because Intel made it so? Now that AMD in AM4 has shown another model, many seem happy for the possibility of doubling+ the initial entry CPU.
 

Geddagod

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2021
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Is that because Intel made it so? Now that AMD in AM4 has shown another model, many seem happy for the possibility of doubling+ the initial entry CPU.
And yet AM5 has had relatively slow sales because of higher platform costs and high CPU costs, despite people knowing that they can upgrade down the line. The higher upfront cost is hard to swallow for many, even if in some cases it is irrational to do so. It was so bad at one point that Microcenter legit started bundling free ddr5 to get sales going! You also see this in recent public opinion polls such as the 3dcenter.org one, zen 4 has less than HALF the interest to buy percentage than zen 3!
 
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