Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[nicalandia]

Matching the 13900K isn't enough for AMD. The 7950X is behind in games, cost, and platform maturity. It needs to dominate MT to make it worthwhile.

The 7950X does not only "Matches" the 13900K on some MT workloads, but it's superior on many..! That is on general purpose benchmarks, but on niche segments like AVX-512 the 5950X is in a category of it's own.!

 

[In2Photos]

Would have been nice to see what the prices for AMD and Intel would have been if Raptor Lake was released first.

 

[deasd]

Zen 4 is a very competitive architecture. But the 7600X and 7700X are very uncompetitive products and the 13600K makes them look silly.

It all depends on what you need.
do E-cores spam and ditch AVX512 support is unforgivable terrible dumb decision from the start.
The E-core could stand well for unlimited threaded MT, but when AVX512 becomes popular, the hybrid architecture would die.

I'm curious how many people interested in E-core + buggy Win11 and with no interest at AVX512-implement emulators like RPCS3. I'm afraid people with these two adding up would be a quite niche market.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Get a 7600X today so in a couple of years you get to upgrade to a 7800X3D(second hand by then, or lowered price) and bet set for a few more years...

I dunno man, you can get a 13600K now which is an excellent gaming CPU and a surprisingly good production CPU. All on a cheaper platform.

I'm an AMD fan and all, but the 13600K seems like a steal to me.

 

[nicalandia]

I dunno man, you can get a 13600K now which is an excellent gaming CPU and a surprisingly good production CPU. All on a cheaper platform.

DDR4 13600K is not beating the 7600X on gaming..! You need 6400+ DDR5 Speed and OC to match it. Those aren't cheap.!

 

[Ranulf]

I dont understand this, or the hype for the 13600k. The 7600x, 7700x, 13600k and 13700k trade blows in gaming with the respective chip (results seem all over the place depending on the site) at similar prices.

The intel chip wins mostly on price if you go with ddr4 ram and mobo.

 

[nicalandia]

The intel chip wins mostly on price if you go with ddr4 ram and mobo.

Except they Don't Win with DDR4. a single 7600X beats any Raptor Lake that comes to the fight with DDR4(gaming) and DDR4 13900K can't even break 22,000 points in GB5 MT.

 

[ondma]

The intel chip wins mostly on price if you go with ddr4 ram and mobo.

Yea, but then you are sacrificing some performance, depending on the game/application. Like I said in another post, it is not really that the 7600x itself is too expensive, but the motherboards are too expensive. I would think this will be remedied eventually. Bottom line though, is there really is no bad choice between RL and Zen 4.

 

[HurleyBird]

do E-cores spam and ditch AVX512 support is unforgivable terrible dumb decision from the start.
The E-core could stand well for unlimited threaded MT, but when AVX512 becomes popular, the hybrid architecture would die.

E-core spam only works as well as it does because, apart from the high end, AMD decided to let Intel win this time around. 24-cores would be very nice, and I wish AMD had went that route, but if they can more or less match Intel with 16-cores to their 8+16, then there's no reason they can't also come up with lower end SKUs that properly compete against Intel's. Especially considering that chiplets let AMD retain more frequency down the product stack. Something as simple as removing the 6-core from the lineup and slotting in a 14-core would have greatly decreased the appeal of E-core spam.

As for AVX-512, it's a certainly plus in the AMD column, but it's unlikely to get much traction until both vendors support it. It might take a generation or two after that point to really get going. The time to upgrade from Zen 4 almost certainly come sooner than AVX-512 making a really noticeable difference outside of a small minority of specific applications.

That said, hybrid isn't inherently incompatible with AVX-512, and I wouldn't be surprised if AVX-512 returned with Meteor Lake. At the very least, I would be surprised to see Meteor Lake big cores still fielding disabled AVX-512 blocks that are taking up die space for nothing.

 

[nicalandia]

Yea, but then you are sacrificing some performance, depending on the game/application.

It's 25% on Geekbench MT against DDR5

Geekbench Search - Geekbench

browser.geekbench.com

 

[Timmah!]

The 7950X does not only "Matches" the 13900K on some MT workloads, but it's superior on many..! That is on general purpose benchmarks, but on niche segments like AVX-512 the 5950X is in a category of it's own.!

To be fair it might be superior, but the difference is marginal, few percent. Intel is about the same amount more performant in single-thread. The CPUs are pretty well matched all around, when we talk absolute performance.
AVX-512 is nice, but its more of a gimmick at this point. The apps that use it you could probably count with a singe hand of yours.

7950x is indeed great little CPU and i intend it to purchase myself, perhaps as soon as next month. But if i knew, there would be hypothetical 24C "7970x" coming in the first half of the next year, or that upcoming 34C Intel CPU (or better said its 22/24/26/28C variant) wont be priced through the roof like TR Pro, i would be willing to wait for that one.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Instead of e cores, AMD can release a 24 core part if they needed the absolute multi threaded win

The current AM5 package looks too small to accommodate 3 CCDs on N5. More cores would require a different package design or smaller CCDs. Or something.

 

[eek2121]

Some of you guys need to get out of this thread.

Is it "cut down" ? "crammed in there" ? Do I have to check the cloud to find out ?

I imagine it is not designed to run hot but rather lower power. Less power delivery, less traces needed to power the chip. Less power budget, less cache you can power.

Unsure if trolling or not, but I will explain. In case you aren't aware, For a given node, TSMC has both HD (high density) and HP (high performance) libraries.They also have a several other libraries for specific tasks as well as a 'Balanced' one. For Zen 4 AMD appears to have taken the balanced and HP libraries (based on public info) and customized them to the point where they can squeeze a ton of performance out of the process. They released the regular Zen 4 CCDs based on that customization. Zen4v will be based on TSMC HD (plus AMD customizations) libraries. These HD libraries won't be able to reach the performance levels of the HP libraries, but in return, density is much higher. Note that Intel usually has similar libraries (available to use), however they have been skipping them lately, despite their attempt at selling IFS to third parties. Intel also usually has a few custom blends which they use for their chips. Since moving to 10nm Intel 7, Intel has abandoned all density libraries in favor of absolute performance. Due to Intel being more than a node behind AMD they have to make this sacrifice. It is widely expected that Intel will soon remedy when they push out Intel 4 products next year, assuming there are no delays.

Note that given Intel's track record, many here are (understandably/rightfully) skeptical of Intel delivering on time. Intel has been able to KO AMD only once in the entire time they've existed. AMD has survived, but not only that, they've become much bigger and more threatening than before. Most, including me, are skeptical Intel can do it again. Even Apple, who famously came to Intel due to IBM/PPC failing, recently walked away from Intel due to perf/watt, and general power consumption for that matter. Apple's current chips don't quite have the performance of top end Intel/AMD chips, however they are efficient in terms of perf/watt. Speaking of which...

AMD currently absolutely beats Intel in terms of perf/watt. It will take a Hail Mary at Intel to fix that. Thus far we've seen nothing from Intel except poor marketing, hence the skepticism.

Please note that there are multiple Intel threads, so if you want to talk Intel, those are the places to go. Coming in here and spouting "INTEL IS BETTER" when their chip consumes 50-70W more for similar performance to an AMD chip is counterproductive. It is also quite clear that inflation still has a lot of folks in shock, so shouting "MIDRANGE INTEL IS BETTER" and showing folks that midrange means a build of more than $500 is also not a good idea. This likely applies to all threads. Just a thought.

Anyway, happy vibes. Glad to have competition. The 1950X was the first AMD chip I purchased since Core 2 dropped. Hopefully Intel reinvents the company and drops another Core 2.

 

[Schmide]

guess what the "c" actually stands for?

You freaking asked us to guess?!

Some of you guys need to get out of this thread.

Unsure if trolling or not, but I will explain. (snip rant)

None of that explanation contradicted nor complemented what I said.

So don't play moderator. I and others have every right to be in any thread on this board. If we say something that isn't perfect that's fine as well.

 

[desrever]

The current AM5 package looks too small to accommodate 3 CCDs on N5. More cores would require a different package design or smaller CCDs. Or something.

They can design something that would work pretty easily imo. There is definately room on the package if things are shuffled.

 

[uzzi38]

@Timorous

I can't quote you since some stupid table keeps imposing itself on the reply; regardless, it's not likely that v-cache will come with a clockspeed regression this time around. The 7950X already is able to sustain clocks with a mild undervolt as it is, so AMD has some room to play with binning etc.

That's not the reason I would have said there's a chance we may not see a clock regression (mind you I'm not ruling it out - I don't know at all if it will or it won't)

Zen 4 actually has seperate clock domains for the Core + L1 and L2 + L3 (+ future V-Cache).

 

[Kaluan]

Zen 4 is a very competitive architecture. But the 7600X and 7700X are very uncompetitive products and the 13600K makes them look silly.

...that's not low end now is it?
(and paradoxically, low end "Raptor Lake" also isn't Raptor Lake either lol not to mention not out yet)

This obsession/cherry picking about AMD not having a price match with Intel at every conceivable tier or case use is telling. It's as if some are actually wondering why nVidia is outselling AMD, even tho Radeon largely offers better value than GeForce, while avoiding the clear answer. Same reasons why some were recommending AMD put/rebrand Radeon under the Ryzen brand 😅

This ain't the early 2010s anymore people...

 

[nicalandia]

AMD Ryzen 7700 non-x part spotted on Geekbench5

Default string X670E Taichi - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a Default string X670E Taichi with an AMD Ryzen 7 7700 processor.

browser.geekbench.com

 

[bearmoo]

That's not the reason I would have said there's a chance we may not see a clock regression (mind you I'm not ruling it out - I don't know at all if it will or it won't)

Zen 4 actually has seperate clock domains for the Core + L1 and L2 + L3 (+ future V-Cache).

View attachment 69826

Does that mean it's actually possible to V-cache the L2 also?

 

[nicalandia]

Non-X/K 16 Threads CPUs battle


Intel 13400 vs AMD 7700

Default string X670E Taichi vs Acer Predator PO5-650 - Geekbench

 

[Thibsie]

Non-X/K 16 Threads CPUs battle


Intel 13400 vs AMD 7700
View attachment 69847

Default string X670E Taichi vs Acer Predator PO5-650 - Geekbench

That result was expected but good to know, thanks.

 

[nicalandia]

So according to Geekbench The Ryzen 7700 is performing 269.5% Higher Than OG Ryzen 1700? Holy Smokes...!

Default string X670E Taichi vs ASUS System Product Name - Geekbench

browser.geekbench.com

 

[Mopetar]

For 2500 the cheapest one. Thank you but no thank you.
And no, you cannot justify it. You may think that doing 3D rendering for living is being so paid so generously, that 2500+ EUR for "professional workstation chip" is just an afterthought. Here is the thing, it is not, definitely not for everyone and everywhere. That myth has to die.

I can fully appreciate wanting more performance for a lower cost, but justification is a simple matter of mathematics.

If an extra $2,500 spread over several years of ownership doesn't make you more productive in a way that let's you get more work done so as to justify the cost, then you clearly don't need the additional resources.

A 13900K or a 7950X is loads better than what you could have bought for that price five years ago. Prior to the launch of the original Zen CPUs, an 8-core CPU was HEDT and cost $1,000 or more. Now 16 is consumer desktop.

Have you perhaps considered that the people who do buy the professional chips can get more work done which allows them to be more competitive on price and push the people using less efficient equipment out of the market? Sure it sucks if you're the grandma knitting socks by hand that's been driven out by the new mill running power looms, but everyone buying just wants less expensive socks.

Assuming you are using it for work, you can probably even write off the costs as a business expense. If it's a cutthroat competitive market, the question isn't whether you can afford to, it's can you afford not to.

 

[Asterox]

Non-X/K 16 Threads CPUs battle


Intel 13400 vs AMD 7700
View attachment 69847

Default string X670E Taichi vs Acer Predator PO5-650 - Geekbench

No, that is wrong comparison or why compare i5 13400 vs R7 7700.

The logical comparison is i5 13400 vs R5 7600X, regardless of the price difference and TDP difference.

- Intel 10 CPU Cores+SMT vs AMD 6 CPU Cores+SMT

Acer Predator PO5-650 vs Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd. X670 AORUS ELITE AX - Geekbench

browser.geekbench.com

 

[nicalandia]

No, that is wrong comparison or why compare i5 13400 vs R7 7700.

The logical comparison is i5 13400 vs R5 7600X, regardless of the price difference and TDP difference.

So a 6C/12T vs a 10C/16T CPU?

It's only fair when Intel Wins right?