Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[nicalandia]

In my opinion AMD pushes to much the difference between 4th gen Epyc and Intel's available solutions.

Well, they can't compare it with SPR-SP Which has been delayed to January 2023.

300+ World Records is about right.

 

[nicalandia]

Alright...!

First Official Genoa Benchmarks

AMD EPYC Genoa Gaps Intel Xeon in Stunning Fashion

AMD EPYC Genoa Gaps Intel Xeon in Stunning Fashion

AMD EPYC 9004 "Genoa" gaps Intel Xeon in stunning fashion with 96 cores, PCIe Gen5, and DDR5 and massive performance gains

www.servethehome.com

"The AMD EPYC 9004 series, codenamed “Genoa” is nothing short of a game-changer. We use that often in the industry, but this is not a 15-25% generational improvement. The new AMD EPYC Genoa changes the very foundation of what it means to be a server. This is a 50-60% (or more) "


Phoronix

AMD EPYC 9554 & EPYC 9654 Benchmarks - Outstanding Performance For Linux HPC/Servers Review - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

A single Socket Genoa trampling both 2P Milan-X and 2P Ice Lake is truly mind blowing.

"When taking the geometric mean of all the benchmarks that successfully ran on all processors, here is how things shake out. Even a single EPYC 9554 comes out ahead of the 2P EPYC 7773X configuration overall... AMD 4th Gen EPYC is great with its AVX-512 implementation, DDR5 system memory, twelve memory channels, and other Zen 4 architectural improvements. "

 

[Markfw]

It's a long shot but you could write to AMD to donate a Genoa server to you for the noble pursuit of science and medicine. Just show them photos of the servers you already have. I think they would be interested in publicity like that.

Thanks ! I might just do that ! And my power bill may actually go down ! (I would have to replace something already running)

 

[IEC]

Genoa is a monster...

 

[nicalandia]

...

Genoa is a monster...

Quite Literal a Kraken..!

Here is a Single 9654P vs 2P 7773X and 2P 8380

 

[Mopetar]

Waiting for Sapphire Rapids is like waiting for your dad who said they were just going out for cigarettes at the corner store and would be back in five minutes.

 

[moinmoin]

Phoronix

AMD EPYC 9554 & EPYC 9654 Benchmarks - Outstanding Performance For Linux HPC/Servers Review - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

A single Socket Genoa trampling both 2P Milan-X and 2P Ice Lake is truly mind blowing.

Never have I seen Phoronix's Michael gush this much before:

"From my testing of the EPYC 9554 and EPYC 9654 (and my preliminary testing with the EPYC 9374F -- stay tuned for my full review there!), the performance is incredible generationally and against the current Xeon Ice Lake competition while waiting for Sapphire Rapids. Particularly for the HPC workloads, the generational gains from Milan(X) to Genoa were some of the most captivating generational improvements and against the competition that I've seen out of the past 18+ years of running Phoronix for Linux hardware reviews. The huge raw performance gains are matched by competitive performance-per-Watt and competitive performance-per-dollar for driving great value in the data center. For many of the AVX-512 workloads, the performance-per-dollar of 4th Gen is extremely compelling."

 

[nicalandia]

Some naked Genoa Dies.

 

[Kaluan]

Most important slide for consumer:



Left side: Confirms 64MB V-Cache per CCD on Raphael-X. (Or 192/1152MB per max CCD Raphael-X/Genoa-X)

Right side: Also may confirm Zen4 Thresdripper (just Pro?) in H2(?) 2023.


Also, nice seeing the 14% IPC average in 33 server workloads claim. Makes the trolls and doomers shut up about the "muh 13% desktop claim only so high cuz cherry picked and games!"

 

[Markfw]

Its not surprising to me, as I know how much faster the 7950x is vs the 5950x, so the same applies to the 9654 ! Just 6 7950x's put together, and the wattage lowered to the equivalent of 60 watts on the 7950x, and that hardly cripples it at all.The problem with SR is that is is just 13900k tech, which sucks power like no tomorrow, and you can't lower the wattage anywhere close as much as the 7950x, so the wattage will be much higher, which means they have to clock it WAY down, even for 499-500 watts. The data center can't deal with high power like DIY can.

The bottom line is that Intel will NOT have anything to answer for quite a while.

 

[nicalandia]

The problem with SPR is that is is just 13900k tech

SPR-SP has Golden Cove cores which do not enjoy The updates to the Core design and Power Saving design of Raptor Cove cores.. So it's actually a less efficient core design Than the recently released 13900K,

 

[HurleyBird]

SPR-SP has Golden Cove cores which do not enjoy The updates to the Core design and Power Saving design of Raptor Cove cores.. So it's actually a less efficient core design Than the recently released 13900K,

Enterprise Golden Cove is Raptor Cove.

 

[nicalandia]

Enterprise Golden Cove is Raptor Cove.

Not Really, the only thing in common that Server based Golden Cove with Raptor Cove is the L2$ size, which is 2.00. Raptor Cove is an enhancement over that.

 

[HurleyBird]

Not Really, the only thing in common that Server based Golden Cove with Raptor Cove is the L2$ size, which is 2.00. Raptor Cove is an enhancement over that.

Can't be bothered to scrounge an example, but if you look at die shots of enterprise Golden Cove and Raptor Cove they are completely indistinguishable while consumer Golden Cove is very distinguishable. It's not just an extended L2 block either; the actual layout is different. Note that Emerald Rapids is also using "Golden Cove." (actually, unspecified)

If there is a difference between enterprise Golden Cove and Raptor Cove, it's of the Zen->Zen+ variety.

 

[Markfw]

One thing is sure. Genoa is already shipping, and SR can't touch it in performance, and especially perf/watt.

 

[nicalandia]

If there is a difference between enterprise Golden Cove and Raptor Cove, it's of the Zen->Zen+ variety.

It's fair to say that Raptor Cove is Golden Cove+ similar to Zen>Zen+.

According to Intel Raptor Cove and Emerald Rapids will use Intel Super 7 which allows 200Mh speed at same voltage. SPR-SP is older tech.

ADL/SPR = Intel 7
RTL/EMR = Intel Super 7, Super 7 is a more efficient. You could compare it to GlobalFoundries 12nm(Zen+) vs 14nm(Zen)

 

[gdansk]

One thing is sure. Genoa is already shipping, and SR can't touch it in performance, and especially perf/watt.

Maybe at the highest end. But shouldn't the 60 core part compete with 64 core Genoa pretty well?
It's not always about the halo parts...

 

[nicalandia]

Maybe at the highest end. But shouldn't the 60 core part compete with 64 core Genoa pretty well?
It's not always about the halo parts...

Due to the lower clocks(to keep the TDP in check and not going past 400 Watts) there will be no competition from SPR (not taking into account The Xeon Max Which will be competing with Genoa-X),

This is a single 64C/128T Genoa 9554 Beating a 2P 7763 Zen3(128C/256T) and a 80C/160T Ice Lake 2P System


Linux Benchmarks 64C Genoa vs 2P Milan and 2P 8380 Ice Lake

 

[Abwx]

Maybe at the highest end. But shouldn't the 60 core part compete with 64 core Genoa pretty well?
It's not always about the halo parts...

We have a basis for a core/core comparison, 8 Zen 4 cores in a 7700X@45W are 4% faster than 8 RPL cores@65W, at equal throughput the 7700X would be at 40W despite an IOD that use much more power than the 13700K PCH.

That s at least 65/40 = 62.5% better perf/watt at isoperf for Zen 4 on a core/core basis, the thing is that Intel s SPR is still using the same process than ICL even if improved, and that a faster uarch wont improve perf/watt if throughput is to be increased.

Core i9-13900K, i7-13700K & i5-13600K: Gaming-Könige im Test

Intel Raptor Lake ist da. Im ausführlichen Test treten Core i9-13900K, i7-13700K und i5-13600K gegen AMD Ryzen 7000 mit Zen-4-Kernen an.

www.computerbase.de

 

[nicalandia]

Even at AVX-512 Where Ice Lake was beating Milan with a 60 Core deficit, The single 64C Genoa part manages to beat them

 

[LightningZ71]

Remember, there are no bad processors (assuming theybpass validation), only bad prices...

 

[Kaluan]

ADL/SPR = Intel 7
RTL/EMR = Intel Super 7, Super 7 is a more efficient. You could compare it to GlobalFoundries 12nm(Zen+) vs 14nm(Zen)

Reading that, all my head hears is "10nm+++ and 10nm++++"
Major deja vu

Maybe at the highest end. But shouldn't the 60 core part compete with 64 core Genoa pretty well?
It's not always about the halo parts...

Why? To appease the niche per-core licensed server market and simultaneously cherry-pick a win here and there for Intel?

Not to mention, the 60C part will be vaporware, or at the very least incredibly expensive vs the 56C parts or lower. There's a reason 8380 (40C) has a unwarranted premium over 8368Q/8368 (38C) and lower... yields and terrible margins.
This will repeat or be even worse with SPR, chiplet design or not. No wonder every leak we've had of a SPR ES was of only the 56C part.

cTDP^ 420W also doesn't really bode well for power consumption straight out of the gate. Not that it's much above Genoa's 400W, but still.

 

[Markfw]

Remember, there are no bad processors (assuming theybpass validation), only bad prices...

Not exactly true... Even cheap, the power that SR will take may be enough to make a lot of people ignore them altogether. UNLIKE the DIY space, power consumption is king in the data center.

2 x power = 4x electricity = 2x power + 2x AC

That can kill a data center. Oh, and 2x generator cost. Most data centers have those as backup.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Streaming now, should we care?

Yes. As AMD's Q3 results showed, enterprise is taking the lead for AMD revenue-wise. Genoa will only extend that lead.

In my opinion AMD pushes to much the difference between 4th gen Epyc and Intel's available solutions.

AMD has to break loose any remaining resistance to the idea of buying non-Intel server hardware. There are still diehards that want the next Intel solution. AMD's marketing has to keep hammering the point home to get through to those people. They have the hot hand, and it's time for them to play it aggressively. "Build it and they will come" alone won't be enough.

 

[Harry_Wild]

The SiSoft SANDRA user database has just been pinged by two new unreleased AMD Ryzen 7000 series "Zen 4" processor models, the Ryzen 7 7700 and Ryzen 5 7600. These chips have the same 8-core/16-thread and 6-core/12-thread core-counts as the 7700X and 7600X, respectively; but with lower clock speeds, and more importantly, a lower TDP of just 65 W. This would put their package power tracking (PPT) limit around 90 W, down from the 105 W and 140 W of the their "X" siblings.

The 7600 and 7700 come with a base frequency of 3.80 GHz, as detected by SANDRA. Every other specification, such as cache size, is the unchanged from the 7600X or 7700X. There's no word on the availability, but it's likely that AMD would debut these chips in the OEM channel first, especially given that the 7600 has the potential to undercut sales of the embattled 7600X. Things could get interesting as Intel debuts the lower end of its 13th Gen Core i5 series, which are rumored to be based on the "Alder Lake" microarchitecture, and 6P+4E SKUs.

65W Non-X AMD Ryzen 7 7700 and Ryzen 5 7600 Surface

The SiSoft SANDRA user database has just been pinged by two new unreleased AMD Ryzen 7000 series "Zen 4" processor models, the Ryzen 7 7700 and Ryzen 5 7600. These chips have the same 8-core/16-thread and 6-core/12-thread core-counts as the 7700X and 7600X, respectively; but with lower clock...

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