Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[igor_kavinski]

AMD has the advantage of following Intel's footsteps so they end up doing things the right away due to seeing Intel's stumbling blocks. Intel however is always busy making new mistakes so they rarely go back to fix their old ones

 

[nicalandia]

AMD has the advantage of following Intel's footsteps so they end up doing things the right away due to seeing Intel's stumbling blocks. Intel however is always busy making new mistakes so they rarely go back to fix their old ones

That's true.

Intel HT as first implemented gave about 15% boost to MT apps. AMD SMT boosted the MT to 25% to OG Zen1

Intel MCM(Core2 Quads)<< AMD Zen1 was a better MCM and then followup with actual CCD

Intel on package L4 << AMD 3D V Cache

Intel AVX-512 While very powerful. It consumed too much power and down-clocked the CPU. AMD while not as powerful it actually performs better since the CPU is neither consuming too much power nor throttling so it's at full speed.

 

[Markfw]

@Markfw

Not sure what you are asking, but I would NEVER disable avx-512 based on what I see going on in software, I used it quite a bit of the time in DC work.

 

[nicalandia]

Not sure what you are asking, but I would NEVER disable avx-512 based on what I see going on in software, I used it quite a bit of the time in DC work.

You and Phoronix have reported that the option is not even available(to disable it) from BIOS...! To the disbelief of the poster BorisTheBlade82

 

[Markfw]

You and Phoronix have reported that the option is not even available(to disable it) from BIOS...! To the disbelief of the poster BorisTheBlade82

No idea, I have never looked. Just saying I would not do it.

 

[nicalandia]

No idea, I have never looked. Just saying I would not do it.

True. it would seem that the AMD build their AVX-15 Implementation to work 100% with the core. Disabling actually hurts performance all around. Unlike Intel Implementation that actually cripples the core

 

[Exist50]

True. it would seem that the AMD build their AVX-15 Implementation to work 100% with the core. Disabling actually hurts performance all around. Unlike Intel Implementation that actually cripples the core

Well now you're just being silly. Even on Skylake, that was an edge case, and basically fixed with Sunny Cove onward. AMD's implementation is good in many ways, but it's not completely without tradeoffs.

Edit: Link for those interested. If 100MHz or so is "crippling", you've got a very weird definition.

 

[alexruiz]

That is very good, Wraith Prism RGB is coming back with R7 7700 and R9 7900.

AMD Ryzen 7900/7700/7600 CPU pricing and specifications have been confirmed - VideoCardz.com

AMD Ryzen 7000 non-X starts at $229 Pricing for Ryzen 7000 non-X CPUs has now been confirmed. The rumors about potential Ryzen 7000 pricing were indeed correct. Slides from the embargoed presentation shows the pricing and specs for the upcoming Ryzen 7000 series which are set to launch next...

videocardz.com

View attachment 73022

It would be amazing if the Wraith Prism was a newer aRGB version instead of the old analog RGB one

 

[DrMrLordX]

and basically fixed with Sunny Cove onward.

Only on the client parts that didn't have the full implementation of something like Skylake-X. IceLake-SP is probably a different story, but I haven't seen anyone examine that. At all.

 

[LightningZ71]

IceLake mobile is binary compatible with the AVX512 functions that are supported, but, save for few cases, it isn't much faster executing avx512 than it is using AVX2 code paths for the same work.

 

[Exist50]

Only on the client parts that didn't have the full implementation of something like Skylake-X. IceLake-SP is probably a different story, but I haven't seen anyone examine that. At all.

Well AMD doesn't have double FP throughput for server, so not sure what the point there is supposed to be.

Edit: Also, see slide 16 https://hc32.hotchips.org/assets/pr...rver_Processors_Intel_Irma_ICX-CPU-final3.pdf

 

[Exist50]

IceLake mobile is binary compatible with the AVX512 functions that are supported, but, save for few cases, it isn't much faster executing avx512 than it is using AVX2 code paths for the same work.

If the only metric of performance is FP ops/cycle, then AVX512 does pretty much nothing for you. Maybe a little more efficient for the front end. The value of AVX512 is in all the new ops it introduced, more so than the actual vector length, and the area those benefit the most right now is AI.

 

[eek2121]

AMD Ryzen Threadripper 7000 'Storm Peak' CPUs Launching In September 2023: HEDT & Workstation Flavors With Up To 8-Channel Memory & 128 PCIe Gen 5 Lanes

AMD's Ryzen Threadripper 7000 'Storm Peak' CPUs are allegedly going to launch in both HEDT & Workstation flavors in September 2023.

wccftech.com

naturally this info comes the day my 7950x finally arrived
that said, i was not eager to wait till next september

I do wonder what the peak clocks will be. Threadripper has historically trailed Ryzen .

Really? I am honestly surprised. Most/all or only some?

There is no option currently to disable AVX-512 in the ASUS BIOS. From what I gather, none of the others have it either.

EDIT: You can’t disable AVX, AVX2, SSE, MMX, etc. either so I am not really sure how this is notable. There is no disadvantage to having it enabled, unlike on Intel chips.

Also, you can look this stuff up yourself by downloading a BIOS viewer/editor and the BIOS you want to check.

 

[Timmah!]

I do wonder what the peak clocks will be. Threadripper has historically trailed Ryzen .

No reason for it not to clock as high as regular Ryzen on the first CCD, when only that one is utilized, IMO. When additional cores will be loaded, it can happily clock to 4,5GHz or 4 or whatever is needed to stay within the power limit.

 

[eek2121]

No reason for it not to clock as high as regular Ryzen on the first CCD, when only that one is utilized, IMO. When additional cores will be loaded, it can happily clock to 4,5GHz or 4 or whatever is needed to stay within the power limit.

If Intel workstation chips hit 5.7ghz and AMD chips hit 4.5ghz, AMD is going to have a bad time. Note that I am talking single core or light multicore workloads here. Multicore workloads are going to depend on PPT. I suspect some higher end chips will have a higher overall PPT, 350W maybe? Possibly even 380W.

 

[nicalandia]

If Intel workstation chips hit 5.7ghz....

Let me Stop You right there... They wont. TVB Is 4.8 Ghz on Top binned CPUs.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

I do wonder what the peak clocks will be. Threadripper has historically trailed Ryzen .


There is no option currently to disable AVX-512 in the ASUS BIOS. From what I gather, none of the others have it either.

EDIT: You can’t disable AVX, AVX2, SSE, MMX, etc. either so I am not really sure how this is notable. There is no disadvantage to having it enabled, unlike on Intel chips.

Also, you can look this stuff up yourself by downloading a BIOS viewer/editor and the BIOS you want to check.

Yes, I must have confused this with SMT option most BIOS have. Which, by the way, I also personally never had (sadly). I switched from an original Athlon to a Phenom II X4 in 2009 and then to a Renoir 4700U which also lacks SMT.

 

[Kaluan]

I think some are missing the forest for the trees. Didn't we just get confirmation Thresdripper is coming back?
We knew Thresdripper Pro is (this one never left TBH), but not the prosumer kind.

HEDT is (/will be) back y'all.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Well AMD doesn't have double FP throughput for server, so not sure what the point there is supposed to be.

The point is that Intel didn't really "fix the problem". Their approach was twofold: mostly abandon HEDT after Skylake-X, and reduce throughput on remaining client parts with AVX512. Now they've all but eliminated AVX512 except in Xeons. It's in the silicon but you can't use it.

As far as AMD's implementation of AVX512 goes, I guess it's not really so different but it's still a massive improvement for them in applicable workloads.

 

[Timmah!]

Let me Stop You right there... They wont. TVB Is 4.8 Ghz on Top binned CPUs.

View attachment 73120

View attachment 73121

First time i see these tables, how did i miss them, huh? Do we know the release date?
The 2495x would be interesting product perhaps, its sort of what i wanted. Do we know prices as well?
4,8GHz single core is kinda disappointing. All-core will probably be under 4GHz then. I would not be surprised if under these conditions in all-core it will beat 13900k/7950x only by rather small margin.

 

[eek2121]

Let me Stop You right there... They wont. TVB Is 4.8 Ghz on Top binned CPUs.

View attachment 73120

View attachment 73121

I wasn’t necessary saying that Intel was going to have 5.7ghz boost. I was saying that AMD can’t afford to be conservative with clocks. Sorry if my example was taken poorly. Also it was rumored a while ago Intel might have an HEDT series under the Core branding, unsure what happened/will happen with that.

 

[nicalandia]

I wasn’t necessary saying that Intel was going to have 5.7ghz boost. I was saying that AMD can’t afford to be conservative with clocks. Sorry if my example was taken poorly. Also it was rumored a while ago Intel might have an HEDT series under the Core branding, unsure what happened/will happen with that.

I fully expect no less than 5 Ghz on TR parts.

 

[biostud]

I think some are missing the forest for the trees. Didn't we just get confirmation Thresdripper is coming back?
We knew Thresdripper Pro is (this one never left TBH), but not the prosumer kind.

HEDT is (/will be) back y'all.

I was wondering that too, with 4 memory channels.

 

[moinmoin]

I was wondering that too, with 4 memory channels.

Probably based on the SP6/Siena platform which has 6 channels, not on the SP5/Genoa one with 12 channels.

 

[nicalandia]

I was wondering that too, with 4 memory channels.

I am not sure if AMD would like to go that route. There was an article by Puget System about memory channel performance. 8 Memory Channels gives trample 4 channels all day long.