Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[Just Benching]

Thanks for proving my point.

I dont know what your point was but I'm glad I could help

 

[Just Benching]

That's quite disappointing, especially since B650E in particular has everything most people would realistically need, even enthusiasts. Also begs the question of what exactly is driving up motherboard prices so much if these boards can't even handle fairly conservative memory speeds. The socket assembly itself?

Been a while since I looked at motherboard design, but it looks like both of those are 6 layer PCBs. That's not super high end, obviously, but doesn't stand out negatively either. Wonder if there's some instability on the DDR5 training side? Perhaps some firmware tweaks could help? I do think it's important for AMD to keep up the quality standards for the mobo manufacturers if they're going to advertise Zen 4 with these memory speeds.

6 layers are enough even for 7000+ speeds.

What's driving prices up, i assume, is the fact that they have to support new cpus for at least the next 3 years. Upgradability costs. The b650 ds3 that hwunboxed is testing realistically shouldnt cost more than 100 euros.

 

[Kocicak]

I got a Gigabyte Z790 Elite board a few days ago and it runs as intended, has no problem with 6000 MHz RAM at all. That is a sample of ONE board. You cannot judge much from such a sample!

I believe that he motherboard PCBs are almost the same across the wide variety of products.

You could get a faulty trace (e.g. wider, closer to another trace) in any case. I do not believe that the final quality check tests all of the possible OC RAM frequencies. They probably test the highest in spec frequency, especially in lower tier board not intended for overclocking.

 

[Elfear]

HUB is testing B650 boards and their initial impression is... bad.



While in general I have defended some of the price hikes in motherboards as legitimate due to higher BoM, this kind of poor performance is unacceptable.

That is really disappointing, especially considering they launched 4+ months ago. Thankfully I've had great success with my budget Asrock B650 board. Booted up no problem with EXPO settings (DDR5-6000 & CL32) and has been fairly trouble free (knock on wood).

 

[JoeRambo]

The typical reviewer is only capable of loading XMP or EXPO profile and hoping that works. When it doesn't, well too bad, their ability to troubleshoot is minor.
Truth to be told, so does your average Joe.

So it is AMD''s fault at the end of the day to make platform that just works. My experience with B650 + 7950x + 2x32GB D5 5600 is beyond horrible and easily the worst ever.
Battery BIOS reset is common on this disgrace of a beta testing on users platform, they even have battery short jumper. Safe boot does not work, recover after failed OC fails to trip, BIOS has multiple places for same options with some crazy interactions between them and so on and on.

For average Joe, if board is not stable after loading EXPO profile, well you are in the world of pain and reduced to just waiting for next BIOS and AGESA.

I really had to work to achieve the memory OC and end result is awesome. At the end of the day this $200 motherboard was as good as highest end money grab motherboard 670E. Voltage regulation, performance and stability is there, in mATX mb.

 

[RTX2080]

So the mem OC is still there for A620

https://twitter.com/x/status/1620754335104749570

 

[In2Photos]

"February" launch date! OK AMD. The 7800X3D isn't available until April 6th!!! Glad I picked up a 7700 to use for now.

7800X3D - $449
7900X3D - $599
7950X3D - $699

That's what I expected for the 7800X3D.

AMD Ryzen 9 7950X3D launches February 28th, costs $699 - VideoCardz.com

First AMD Ryzen 7000X3D CPUs to launch on February 28th AMD has confirmed the launch date and pricing for its Ryzen 7000X3D series. AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Pricing, Source: AMD The company reveals that its flagship 16-core Ryzen 9 7950X3D will cost just as much as the ‘original’ Ryzen 9 7950X 16-core...

videocardz.com

 

[Markfw]

"February" launch date! OK AMD. The 7800X3D isn't available until April 6th!!! Glad I picked up a 7700 to use for now.

7800X3D - $449
7900X3D - $599
7950X3D - $699

That's what I expected for the 7800X3D.

AMD Ryzen 9 7950X3D launches February 28th, costs $699 - VideoCardz.com

First AMD Ryzen 7000X3D CPUs to launch on February 28th AMD has confirmed the launch date and pricing for its Ryzen 7000X3D series. AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Pricing, Source: AMD The company reveals that its flagship 16-core Ryzen 9 7950X3D will cost just as much as the ‘original’ Ryzen 9 7950X 16-core...

videocardz.com

I need one like a hole in the head ( I have 7 computer turned off right now to save electricity $$), but I will have one on launch day.

 

[inf64]

"February" launch date! OK AMD. The 7800X3D isn't available until April 6th!!! Glad I picked up a 7700 to use for now.

7800X3D - $449
7900X3D - $599
7950X3D - $699

That's what I expected for the 7800X3D.

AMD Ryzen 9 7950X3D launches February 28th, costs $699 - VideoCardz.com

First AMD Ryzen 7000X3D CPUs to launch on February 28th AMD has confirmed the launch date and pricing for its Ryzen 7000X3D series. AMD Ryzen 7000X3D Pricing, Source: AMD The company reveals that its flagship 16-core Ryzen 9 7950X3D will cost just as much as the ‘original’ Ryzen 9 7950X 16-core...

videocardz.com

7700 is a great CPU, you didn't make a mistake at all. 3D parts will surely be better in games, but you'd need 4090 to see the difference.

 

[Mopetar]

7700 is a great CPU, you didn't make a mistake at all. 3D parts will surely be better in games, but you'd need 4090 to see the difference.

For a few titles like MS Flight Simulator it will make a difference with lesser GPUs as well. Other games like Factorio that aren't really graphically intense, but have a lot of computational work being done will also see a massive bump even with a mid-range card.

 

[Joe NYC]

Pricing revealed:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1620838118751440897

 

[In2Photos]

7700 is a great CPU, you didn't make a mistake at all. 3D parts will surely be better in games, but you'd need 4090 to see the difference.

Yes, it's been great. I'm still tuning it and all, but the new system is so responsive and I'm happy with it so far. What I meant was that I'm glad I didn't wait for the 7800X3D to launch before building. I didn't want to wait any more and I made the right choice.

 

[biostud]

Yes, it's been great. I'm still tuning it and all, but the new system is so responsive and I'm happy with it so far. What I meant was that I'm glad I didn't wait for the 7800X3D to launch before building. I didn't want to wait any more and I made the right choice.

Well, I can't get the case that I want until early March, but damn I had hoped to be able to get the 7800X3D at that time. Will decide when 7950X3D benchmarks arrives, whether I should hold on for another month or simply get the regular 7700 as I will be GPU limited in most scenarios anyway...

 

[In2Photos]

Well, I can't get the case that I want until early March, but damn I had hoped to be able to get the 7800X3D at that time. Will decide when 7950X3D benchmarks arrives, whether I should hold on for another month or simply get the regular 7700 as I will be CPU limited in most scenarios anyway...

I knew you were holding out for the 7800X3D too. In your case you have a much more capable CPU than I had (i7-920) so waiting may not be so bad. I don't think you can go wrong with either choice. The additional savings is starting to look even better too! ($449 vs $329). There has to be a really significant performance increase to justify the 36% in additional cost!

 

[Joe NYC]

Well, I can't get the case that I want until early March, but damn I had hoped to be able to get the 7800X3D at that time. Will decide when 7950X3D benchmarks arrives, whether I should hold on for another month or simply get the regular 7700 as I will be GPU limited in most scenarios anyway...

Same here.

$250 is quite a bit of an increment for something that I may not need, but I could be persuaded if the gaming benchmarks have some improvements (which I don't really expect).

This is a clever (or devious) way for AMD to extract more money from people waiting for these Zen 4 V-Cache models, because a few impatient ones will end up getting the 7900 / 7950, even though they really intended to go with 7800x3d

 

[Saylick]

Same here.

$250 is quite a bit of an increment for something that I may not need, but I could be persuaded if the gaming benchmarks have some improvements (which I don't really expect).

This is a clever (or devious) way for AMD to extract more money from people waiting for these Zen 4 V-Cache models, because a few impatient ones will end up getting the 7900 / 7950, even though they really intended to go with 7800x3d

Heh, this has always been the case in the PC space, e.g. flagship GPUs get released first before mainstream ones, releasing overclockable CPUs for enthusiasts before released non-K or non-X variants for the masses, feature-packed premium mobos before mainstream mobos, etc.

 

[nicalandia]

$250 is quite a bit of an increment for something that I may not need, but I could be persuaded if the gaming benchmarks have some improvements (which I don't really expect).

You dont expect X3D model show gaming imptovements?

 

[Joe NYC]

You dont expect X3D model show gaming imptovements?

I do expect significant gaming improvements for these 3 V-Cache chips.

I just don't expect much gaming improvement from 7800x3d to 7950x3d

 

[Markfw]

I do expect significant gaming improvements for these 3 V-Cache chips.

I just don't expect much gaming improvement from 7800x3d to 7950x3d

However, like Milan-x chips, SOME applications get a big boost from x3d cache. I want to try for myself and see which ones. In the DC area, I know of at least one app that a high amount of L3 can increase performance 10 fold.

 

[maddie]

I do expect significant gaming improvements for these 3 V-Cache chips.

I just don't expect much gaming improvement from 7800x3d to 7950x3d

If the OS can choose the chiplet for the game, won't the improvement be greater? Cache bound & higher frequency bound will both benefit.

 

[Joe NYC]

If the OS can choose the chiplet for the game, won't the improvement be greater? Cache bound & higher frequency bound will both benefit.

That's the theory. It remains to be seen how well it works in practice.

If 7900x3d and 7950x3d need fine tuning of W-11 scheduler, AMD should have started with release of 7800x3d, which does not need any changes to scheduler and can run fine on Windows 10.

I wonder if this is another master plan by AMD to shoot itself in the foot...

 

[biostud]

That's the theory. It remains to be seen how well it works in practice.

If 7900x3d and 7950x3d need fine tuning of W-11 scheduler, AMD should have started with release of 7800x3d, which does not need any changes to scheduler and can run fine on Windows 10.

I wonder if this is another master plan by AMD to shoot itself in the foot...

If anything, then production capacity would be the main problem. If they had no problems in that regards they should be able to launch at the same time. Otherwise it is just the usual “premium launch first” kind of thing.

 

[Ranulf]

Not a surprise with the prices, especially the 7800x3d. I'm guessing we'll have to wait until at or near April's release date to get data to see if its worth it over a 13700k.

 

[biostud]

I knew you were holding out for the 7800X3D too. In your case you have a much more capable CPU than I had (i7-920) so waiting may not be so bad. I don't think you can go wrong with either choice. The additional savings is starting to look even better too! ($449 vs $329). There has to be a really significant performance increase to justify the 36% in additional cost!

Heh, I had the i5 750 before the 5820k.

Obviously I can wait another month, as I don’t have any “critical” work that I can’t do on my current setup. And most likely I will just suck it up, as I would weigh up “one more month of waiting” vs. “should I have got the 7800X3D instead?” for the years to come, but it is annoying. Oh well maybe more ATX 3.0 PSUs will be available.

The price difference doesn’t come as a surprise, so I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if it is worth it.

 

[Joe NYC]

If anything, then production capacity would be the main problem. If they had no problems in that regards they should be able to launch at the same time. Otherwise it is just the usual “premium launch first” kind of thing.

That was my first thought as well.

But my second thought was that with the track record AMD marketing has over last year, 7900x3d and 7950x3d will be released with broken Windows 11 scheduler, to complete the trifecta of bungled launches.