Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[misuspita]

Add 2 4090 (cause there is no physical space for more), or if using some risers, maybe get to 4 4090 and start your own supercomputer

Edit: - or Mi300 instead of 4090 and crush anything in Crysis

 

[Timmah!]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/11zifgk

what is this? so running 4 sticks with xmp/expo on has been resolved and the 3600 mhz limit does not apply anymore?

 

[Glapple]

Where could I find exact stud sizes?

 

[Kaluan]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/11zifgk

what is this? so running 4 sticks with xmp/expo on has been resolved and the 3600 mhz limit does not apply anymore?

Was the ever a hard limit or just motherboard makers/AMD setting the expectations bar for fully populated low? Intel boards don't claim much higher either AFAIK.

 

[Markfw]

My next motherboard:

Supermicro H13SSL-N Motherboard ATX AMD EPYC 9004 Series Processors

Motherboard ATX, Supports Single Socket SP5, AMD EPYC 9004 series Processors, (Up to 128-Core/256 thread). Up to 3TB DDR5-4800MHz RDIMM in 12 DIMM slots - On-Board: Controller 8 SATA3 (6 Gbps) ports, LAN ports: Dual LAN with Broadcom BCM5720 1GBase-T, 1 RJ45 Dedicated IPMI LAN port, Includes...

www.wiredzone.com

 

[Markfw]

My next motherboard:

Supermicro H13SSL-N Motherboard ATX AMD EPYC 9004 Series Processors

Motherboard ATX, Supports Single Socket SP5, AMD EPYC 9004 series Processors, (Up to 128-Core/256 thread). Up to 3TB DDR5-4800MHz RDIMM in 12 DIMM slots - On-Board: Controller 8 SATA3 (6 Gbps) ports, LAN ports: Dual LAN with Broadcom BCM5720 1GBase-T, 1 RJ45 Dedicated IPMI LAN port, Includes...

www.wiredzone.com

So, I got the motherboard and a 9654 and memory. Now to find a heatsink. That is getting to be a problem. But I will reply back when done in case you want benchmarks, if I can. I think it will be linux, I might try win 10 pro for testing.

 

[A///]

There should be an option to upgrade in os to the workstation version of pro.

 

[Markfw]

There should be an option to upgrade in os to the workstation version of pro.

I was going to install just to test. I don't have a key for it. And long term will be linux. Only problem is benchmarking in linux.

 

[nicalandia]

So, I got the motherboard and a 9654 and memory. Now to find a heatsink. That is getting to be a problem. But I will reply back when done in case you want benchmarks, if I can. I think it will be linux, I might try win 10 pro for testing.

Run Cinebench R23 without any power limits as the ES CPUs are running that way. Also Clear Linux will give you the best performance.

 

[Markfw]

Run Cinebench R23 without any power limits as the ES CPUs are running that way. Also Clear Linux will give you the best performance.

Doesn't cinebench need windows ? If so, what windows version will run it ? I will find out in a few days regardless.

 

[Markfw]

BTW, anybody know for sure that this memory will run on Genoa ? I know its Rdimm and DDR5 4800 is in spec, but....

Micron MTC10F1084S1RC48BA1R MIZ 16GB 288pin PC5-38400 DDR5-4800 CL40 1Rx8 1.1V ECC RDIMM Bulk

 

[A///]

I was going to install just to test. I don't have a key for it. And long term will be linux. Only problem is benchmarking in linux.

phoronix has a publcily available test suit unless you don't want that. no idea how much the key is but it's a differences cost not the cost of a new key and idk if it offers for anything seriously more the average person would need. idr seeing much of a performance difference on regular windows 10 if using 64 core threadripper than a normal processor. It handles it just fine. Microsoft barely advertises the workstation upgrade and I'm sure it's mostly bs now but may have been something before.

 

[nicalandia]

Doesn't cinebench need windows ? If so, what windows version will run it ? I will find out in a few days regardless.

Cinebench R23 runs on Windows and MacOS only But... you can run it in Linux if you instal Wine. DDR5-5200 have been shown to run well on Genoa but those are not ECC, Memory speed may have a big inpact on the Scientific apps you are trying to use, so dont use anything lower than the spec

 

[Markfw]

Cinebench R23 runs on Windows and MacOS only But... you can run it in Linux if you instal Wine. DDR5-5200 have been shown to run well on Genoa but those are not ECC, Memory speed may have a big inpact on the Scientific apps you are trying to use, so dont use anything lower than the spec

I already ordered 192 gig of Micron MTC10F1084S1RC48BA1R MIZ 16GB 288pin PC5-38400 DDR5-4800 CL40 1Rx8 1.1V ECC RDIMM Bulk, so I will use that. Should be in spec.

I am finding it hard to find parts for this system, as most are probably supported by OEMS.

 

[nicalandia]

Impressive World Record a single 9654 nearly 100,000 points.

ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. RS500A-E12-RS12U - Geekbench

Benchmark results for an ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. RS500A-E12-RS12U with an AMD EPYC 9654 processor.

browser.geekbench.com

A 9454 48 core gets 53,000 points.

ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ESC4000A-E12 - Geekbench

Benchmark results for an ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. ESC4000A-E12 with an AMD EPYC 9454 processor.

browser.geekbench.com

 

[Abwx]

AMD about DT SKUs voltage :

So on desktops, we do what we call allow a lot of margin on voltage curve, there's voltage and frequency curve, and we probably use a little bit more voltage than we need to because its desktop and we don't have to be too tight with it

AMD Dragon Range "Ryzen 7045" CPUs Come With Various Power Optimizations Delivering Up To 54% Higher Efficiency Versus Raptor Lake

AMD recently launched its Ryzen 7045 CPUs for enthusiast laptops codenamed Dragon Range and they come with some unique power optimizations.

wccftech.com

 

[Markfw]

This video has demo of it breaking multiple world records. But IT TAKES UP TO 15 MINUTES TO POST !

Spoiler: only click to watch and ignore video title that has mild profanity.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Wish I knew what kind of fans they had running in those Genoa servers. They sound like Deltas.

Also I don't think he's saying "Genoa" correctly. But he isn't Italian.

 

[Markfw]

Wish I knew what kind of fans they had running in those Genoa servers. They sound like Deltas.

Also I don't think he's saying "Genoa" correctly. But he isn't Italian.

Well, being almost deaf, I can't tell you on the deltas. BUT, the socket is 400 watt, and it uses at least 320, and the heatsinks I could find are anemic, so having delta fans does not surprise me. I think I finally got a good HSF, but it took some doing, and I don't have it yet. The one I have is a 80mm 8000 rpm (delta ??) This is what I am trying to get, I have an order, but they say they can't guarantee I get it ???? And this would not fit in those servers. servers don't need to be quiet, they are in a loud server room (just the AC is almost deafening, from when I could hear)

 

[A///]

Well, being almost deaf, I can't tell you on the deltas. BUT, the socket is 400 watt, and it uses at least 320, and the heatsinks I could find are anemic, so having delta fans does not surprise me. I think I finally got a good HSF, but it took some doing, and I don't have it yet. The one I have is a 80mm 8000 rpm (delta ??) This is what I am trying to get, I have an order, but they say they can't guarantee I get it ???? And this would not fit in those servers. servers don't need to be quiet, they are in a loud server room (just the AC is almost deafening, from when I could hear)
View attachment 79199

Deltas are loud, but louder in unison. I buy up old used deltas every so often during dc sales and rewire them to use as a bbq blower. Better than standing next to the fire poking it to keep it lit and feeling like I'm cooking.

 

[Saylick]

I wasn't sure which thread to post this in, but my company is due for a server hardware upgrade and I'd like to quantifiably recommend Genoa if possible.

Our workload is primarily linear algebra (structural analysis) and the software is single-threaded, does not leverage AVX, but can spawn multiple processes so all-core boost clocks are important. AMD has often shown IPC charts for each generation, but IPC gains are not uniform across all workloads, so I have no idea how much faster our software would run on the latest architectures. Is there a good reference or website that has compiled benchmark results across multiple CPU generations for linear algebra or Whetstone?

 

[moinmoin]

Is there a good reference or website that has compiled benchmark results across multiple CPU generations for linear algebra or Whetstone?

STH used to do Whetstone benchmarks, but it looks like they stopped doing those after Zen 2?

That said maybe SPEC int is somewhat useful?

AMD EPYC Genoa Gaps Intel Xeon in Stunning Fashion

AMD EPYC 9004 "Genoa" gaps Intel Xeon in stunning fashion with 96 cores, PCIe Gen5, and DDR5 and massive performance gains

www.servethehome.com

Edit: Current results for UnixBench is really slim picking, this cloud hosting ad is the only one I found (unfortunately not splitting out whetstone results):

LayerStack

LayerStack offers high performance and reliable SSD cloud computing services via multi-data center infrastructure and tier-1 resilient network design.

www.layerstack.com

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

@Saylick
I am sidling with @moinmoin on this one. Just look at the SpecInt vs. SPR:

4th Gen Intel Xeon Scalable Sapphire Rapids Leaps Forward

We deep-dive into the 4th Generation Intel Xeon Scalable processors, codenamed Sapphire Rapids, to see a huge leap in Xeon capabilities

www.servethehome.com

And this is on the same per socket TDP. You should be able to get roughly double the Perf/€/w.

/edit: And AMD also have some nice low core count, high frequency SKUs, that might fit your needs even better.

 

[Saylick]

STH used to do Whetstone benchmarks, but it looks like they stopped doing those after Zen 2?

That said maybe SPEC int is somewhat useful?

AMD EPYC Genoa Gaps Intel Xeon in Stunning Fashion

AMD EPYC 9004 "Genoa" gaps Intel Xeon in stunning fashion with 96 cores, PCIe Gen5, and DDR5 and massive performance gains

www.servethehome.com

Edit: Current results for UnixBench is really slim picking, this cloud hosting ad is the only one I found (unfortunately not splitting out whetstone results):

LayerStack

LayerStack offers high performance and reliable SSD cloud computing services via multi-data center infrastructure and tier-1 resilient network design.

www.layerstack.com

@Saylick
I am sidling with @moinmoin on this one. Just look at the SpecInt vs. SPR:

4th Gen Intel Xeon Scalable Sapphire Rapids Leaps Forward

We deep-dive into the 4th Generation Intel Xeon Scalable processors, codenamed Sapphire Rapids, to see a huge leap in Xeon capabilities

www.servethehome.com

And this is on the same per socket TDP. You should be able to get roughly double the Perf/€/w.

/edit: And AMD also have some nice low core count, high frequency SKUs, that might fit your needs even better.

Thanks, guys, for taking time out of your day to help out. I'll take a look at the Spec Int scores as an indirect way of measuring IPC.

@BorisTheBlade82 : Yes, I was eyeing a Dell 2 socket server with dual EPYC 9474F. Pretty good clocks, 3.6 GHz, for a 48 core SKU. Our licensing model is 24 processes per license, so it lines up really well. Our current servers run dual Intel Gold 6146 (Skylake, 12c, 3.2 GHz) so the Genoa system should be a decent amount faster thread-for-thread with way higher total throughput.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Yes, I was eyeing a Dell 2 socket server with dual EPYC 9474F. Pretty good clocks, 3.6 GHz, for a 48 core SKU.

5965WX will boost up to 4.5 GHz in ST workloads. Any reason you really must go with a server? Plus, since your workload is ST intensive, you won't benefit from DDR5's bandwidth and what you really want is DDR4's lower latency so TR Pro platform seems to make more sense in your use case. Dual socket solutions hurt application memory performance unless your application is NUMA aware.