Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[igor_kavinski]

Our current servers run dual Intel Gold 6146 (Skylake, 12c, 3.2 GHz)

Run MaxxMem² on that and you may feel like throwing that server from a high rise building. The memory bandwidth will be pathetically low, maybe even lower than DDR4-3200 on a desktop PC.

 

[Saylick]

5965WX will boost up to 4.5 GHz in ST workloads. Any reason you really must go with a server? Plus, since your workload is ST intensive, you won't benefit from DDR5's bandwidth and what you really want is DDR4's lower latency so TR Pro platform seems to make more sense in your use case. Dual socket solutions hurt application memory performance unless your application is NUMA aware.

It has to be a server because my IT department wants it secure in the server room, plus engineers will be remoting into it to use it. As for a TR system, ST performance is important because the workload is single threaded, but MT performance is important because we run multiple parallel processes of the same ST workload. These workloads are all independent so I don't think a dual socket system or NUMA awareness is a problem. I see your point about memory latency because I suspect all memory access will need to go through RAM because no core will need data from another core, but I'm not sure a TR system is viable because, again, it needs to be in a server form. Also, no overclocking.

 

[igor_kavinski]

but I'm not sure a TR system is viable because, again, it needs to be in a server form. Also, no overclocking.

TR Pro in 2U server chassis: https://www.swt.com/tr2u.php

Pretty sure they will disable OCing in the BIOS. No one is crazy enough to want OCing in a 2U chassis.

 

[Saylick]

TR Pro in 2U server chassis: https://www.swt.com/tr2u.php

Pretty sure they will disable OCing in the BIOS. No one is crazy enough to want OCing in a 2U chassis.

Ooo, I didn't know they put those in a server chassis. Thanks for the recommendation, but I think my options are limited to what Dell offers unfortunately (yes, we're that kind of company... ) so it will likely mean we stick with some kind of Intel system. I'll still try to convince them to use Genoa though. We could increase our analysis throughput by 4x in one dual socket Genoa system, which would replace two of our current analysis servers.

 

[igor_kavinski]

(yes, we're that kind of company... )

Yeah mine too. I was surprised to see that the 8 core Cascade Lake Azure VM we are getting has only 7 GB/s RAM bandwidth but a Milan 2 core VM gave an astounding 30 GB/s. I really hope it's not too expensive as I will try my best to force my company to go with the Milan VM.

 

[A///]

Thanks for the recommendation, but I think my options are limited to what Dell offers unfortunately (yes, we're that kind of company... ) so it will likely mean we stick with some kind of Intel system.

???

Your company only buys prebuilt computers from major odms? All we use at work for our work are xeons with specialised hardware from nvidia and third parties some may have heard of but generally don't know much about. the xeons and nvidia complex units are not exactly new but none of the work we due requires cutting edge hardware. cutting edge hardware would be nice it'd cut down on our development time and simulated experiments but the equipment is perfectly good...

 

[Saylick]

???

Your company only buys prebuilt computers from major odms? All we use at work for our work are xeons with specialised hardware from nvidia and third parties some may have heard of but generally don't know much about. the xeons and nvidia complex units are not exactly new but none of the work we due requires cutting edge hardware. cutting edge hardware would be nice it'd cut down on our development time and simulated experiments but the equipment is perfectly good...

I'm not sure I follow you, but yes. My company only buys from Dell because we have an agreement with them or something. We have a company issued standard spec laptop that is either a Dell Latitude or Precision Workstation depending on the engineer's role (managers get the Latitude), and we have dedicated servers for our complex analyses, where each simulation can take days to run. We can spec out the Dell servers using whatever options are available on Dell's website, but that's the extent of my customization. As for Intel vs AMD, my company has exclusively used Intel for longer than I've been with them, so I would not be surprised if the IT Department has a preference for Intel. If so, it would be a bummer because Sapphire Rapids likely isn't going to offer more throughput and Intels offerings pre-SPR are basically just more Icelake, which is meh. Sure, we don't need the latest and greatest but it'd be nice for once if we were able to get it.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

I'm not sure I follow you, but yes. My company only buys from Dell because we have an agreement with them or something. We have a company issued standard spec laptop that is either a Dell Latitude or Precision Workstation depending on the engineer's role (managers get the Latitude), and we have dedicated servers for our complex analyses, where each simulation can take days to run. We can spec out the Dell servers using whatever options are available on Dell's website, but that's the extent of my customization. As for Intel vs AMD, my company has exclusively used Intel for longer than I've been with them, so I would not be surprised if the IT Department has a preference for Intel. If so, it would be a bummer because Sapphire Rapids likely isn't going to offer more throughput and Intels offerings pre-SPR are basically just more Icelake, which is meh. Sure, we don't need the latest and greatest but it'd be nice for once if we were able to get it.

I feel you.
Same for me at my employer: We have a solution provider that sources Servers to us in T-Shirt sizes. The biggest one is still some Cascade Lake Xeon 28c, which is driving me nuts.

 

[A///]

I'm not sure I follow you, but yes. My company only buys from Dell because we have an agreement with them or something. We have a company issued standard spec laptop that is either a Dell Latitude or Precision Workstation depending on the engineer's role (managers get the Latitude), and we have dedicated servers for our complex analyses, where each simulation can take days to run. We can spec out the Dell servers using whatever options are available on Dell's website, but that's the extent of my customization. As for Intel vs AMD, my company has exclusively used Intel for longer than I've been with them, so I would not be surprised if the IT Department has a preference for Intel. If so, it would be a bummer because Sapphire Rapids likely isn't going to offer more throughput and Intels offerings pre-SPR are basically just more Icelake, which is meh. Sure, we don't need the latest and greatest but it'd be nice for once if we were able to get it.

sorry i rambled off. our structure is the same but we've got a contract with hp. We don't see much hardware turnover either and IT picked Intel during their last refresh because AMD was just beginning to make a comeback.Some people are supposed to get phoenix point laptops by end of this year assuming that's the 16 core models.

The company I work at the moment doesn't spend money on regular upgrades to hardware because we're not on time crunch and sever many industries that are fine with long lead times. I suspect our upgrade path will come after 2025. We don't upgrade often like yours does to get the most out of every operating hour it seems. I don't know if xeons will ever be dropped for TR Pro or Epycs because a lot of the heads are much older and may follow the old line of you'll never get in trouble for buying ibm or in this case intel. We're all aware of how good amd's platforms are, it's the surprise issues that may cost dearly. we use some proprietary hardware from a third party that emulates before send off but no idea what's in it.

 

[Saylick]

sorry i rambled off. our structure is the same but we've got a contract with hp. We don't see much hardware turnover either and IT picked Intel during their last refresh because AMD was just beginning to make a comeback.Some people are supposed to get phoenix point laptops by end of this year assuming that's the 16 core models.

The company I work at the moment doesn't spend money on regular upgrades to hardware because we're not on time crunch and sever many industries that are fine with long lead times. I suspect our upgrade path will come after 2025. We don't upgrade often like yours does to get the most out of every operating hour it seems. I don't know if xeons will ever be dropped for TR Pro or Epycs because a lot of the heads are much older and may follow the old line of you'll never get in trouble for buying ibm or in this case intel. We're all aware of how good amd's platforms are, it's the surprise issues that may cost dearly. we use some proprietary hardware from a third party that emulates before send off but no idea what's in it.

Dang. Phoenix Point laptops. I'm jealous. Meanwhile I'm over here with my Tigerlake Dell Latitude whose fans start churning everytime I open up anything even remotely graphically intensive. I'm really hoping our next laptops are Meteorlake based, if not Phoenix Point. Knowing Dell and their love of Intel (well, more like only Intel can ship the volumes needed for Dell), it will likely be MTL.

Truth be told, our current servers are fast enough at the moment but the IT department upgrades them for security reasons anyways, more or less when the Dell support plan expires. Our upgrade cycles are generally once every 5 years or so, so we're almost due. Yeah, you bring up a good point about AMD hardware potentially being buggy, but it's 4th gen EPYC at this point. The fact that Dell ships an EPYC system speaks some truth about how far they've come. While I can't claim our analyses to be mission critical, it would suck if we lost a few days of progress due to a server issue. Then again, I've made some dumb modeling mistakes before which meant a 5-day long analysis needed to be scrapped, so it's not that different lol

I feel you.
Same for me at my employer: We have a solution provider that sources Servers to us in T-Shirt sizes. The biggest one is still some Cascade Lake Xeon 28c, which is driving me nuts.

Sorry for your loss, man. Anything Skylake arch based is just too long in the tooth.

 

[A///]

the pp laptops are not set in stone saylick. it's what the it dept wants to order for a few dozen employees. not yours truly ofc. the other options are raptor or mtl laptops which seem more likely. I'm thrilled we get fresh donuts 3x a week from a nice place close to us. none of the fu fu granola, seed clusters, gluten free vegan bars, and unsulfared fruit bs more fancy companies put out in the break room. horse food that. Even a pig wouldn't eat that crap and they'll eat anything.

 

[nicalandia]

Anyone Interested?

Portable AMD EPYC Workstation Packs Up To Dual 96-Core Genoa CPUs & Six 4K Displays, Weighs Up To 55 Lbs

Mediaworkstations has unveiled its new portable AMD EPYC PC that packs up to dual Genoa CPUs and six 4K displays while weighing 55 lbs.

wccftech.com

 

[Saylick]

Anyone Interested?

Portable AMD EPYC Workstation Packs Up To Dual 96-Core Genoa CPUs & Six 4K Displays, Weighs Up To 55 Lbs

Mediaworkstations has unveiled its new portable AMD EPYC PC that packs up to dual Genoa CPUs and six 4K displays while weighing 55 lbs.

wccftech.com

At least you won't be needing a gym membership if you have to lug this thing around.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Anyone Interested?

Portable AMD EPYC Workstation Packs Up To Dual 96-Core Genoa CPUs & Six 4K Displays, Weighs Up To 55 Lbs

Mediaworkstations has unveiled its new portable AMD EPYC PC that packs up to dual Genoa CPUs and six 4K displays while weighing 55 lbs.

wccftech.com

No. I want wheels on it. It needs to follow me and it should be able to walk up and down the stairs.

 

[moinmoin]

Some people are supposed to get phoenix point laptops by end of this year assuming that's the 16 core models.

If it has 16 cores it will be Dragon Range. Phoenix stops at 8 cores.

 

[A///]

If it has 16 cores it will be Dragon Range. Phoenix stops at 8 cores.

I've been thinking phoenix was the 7045 for weeks now. oh well thanks for the primer reminder. that decision doesn't benefit me or anyone in our dept. I'm curious how unwise that decision may be come zen 5 mobile. i don't foresee us being sourced any and they may go with intel's raptor mobile platform instead. these will be stationery 90pc of the time

 

[leoneazzurro]

7945HX is already on sale (ASUS models at least but it seems there are other brands coming including Alienware). Phoenix (the 7X40 series) was delayed by one month apparently.
But, they are starting to appear on European price search engines as "available soon":

Notebooks mit CPU-Serie AMD: Ryzen 7000, Architektur AMD: Zen 4 (ab 2022) Preisvergleich Geizhals EU

Preisvergleich und Bewertungen für Notebooks mit CPU-Serie AMD: Ryzen 7000, Architektur AMD: Zen 4 (ab 2022)

geizhals.eu

As usual ASUS gets that couple of months ahead for early adoption of AMD mobile products.

 

[nicalandia]

Genoa-X makes its debut..

闲鱼宝贝详情

h5.m.goofish.com

 

[nicalandia]

New Genoa Model Spotted, these are Azure SKUs

Here it is in its glory just pounding Cinebench R23 with Over 111,000 points.

AMD EPYC 9V84

闲鱼宝贝详情

h5.m.goofish.com

The 7995WX might just break CBR23 World Record at stock.

 

[Markfw]

All I can say is that my 9654 is just amazing, and worth every dime I spent.

 

[nicalandia]

All I can say is that my 9654 is just amazing, and worth every dime I spent.

I am still waiting for the benchmarks I requested. Is it a QS sample or retail? Depending on Power peofile the Cinebench R23 can range between 100,000 to 115,000

 

[Anhiel]

I am still waiting for the benchmarks I requested. Is it a QS sample or retail? Depending on Power peofile the Cinebench R23 can range between 100,000 to 115,000

That would be the same result as for OCed Threadripper Pro 5995WX with 64c
we are at 96c for 7995WX so it should be more like 174k. The above result looks like it's for (less than) base clock rather than full power.

 

[Anhiel]

I've been thinking phoenix was the 7045 for weeks now. oh well thanks for the primer reminder. that decision doesn't benefit me or anyone in our dept. I'm curious how unwise that decision may be come zen 5 mobile. i don't foresee us being sourced any and they may go with intel's raptor mobile platform instead. these will be stationery 90pc of the time

I don't get why you would go with mobile if they are gonna be stationary anyway. And use external drive for transporting the data. If neither 7045 nor 7945HX do then Meteor Lake might be the better choice. MTL should be king in ST unless max MT power is needed then it's either 7945HX or Raptor Lake refresh. Zen5 will likely only make a 10-20% difference for ST and ~25% for MT.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

I don't get why you would go with mobile if they are gonna be stationary anyway. And use external drive for transporting the data. If neither 7045 nor 7945HX do then Meteor Lake might be the better choice. MTL should be king in ST unless max MT power is needed then it's either 7945HX or Raptor Lake refresh. Zen5 will likely only make a 10-20% difference for ST and ~25% for MT.

You, Sir, are very optimistic regarding Intel and very pessimistic regarding AMD, IMHO.

 

[Markfw]

I am still waiting for the benchmarks I requested. Is it a QS sample or retail? Depending on Power peofile the Cinebench R23 can range between 100,000 to 115,000

First, I can't do didly right now, as we are in a competition. The, I would have to install wine to do windows benchmarks, which I have never done before. Be patient !