Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[naukkis]

Fritzchens Fritz posted some IR comparison images of a 7800X3D vs. a 7600X on Twitter.
Quite interestingly the cache die seems to overlap with the cores a bit. That wasn't the case on the 5800X. That should be the L2 area.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659686660429459456

Amd did describe those technical details when they introduced zen43d.

 

[jpiniero]

AMD chipset drivers list Ryzen 7045HX CPU series for 'desktops' - VideoCardz.com

AMD Dragon Range supposedly coming to desktops Either a mistake or a confirmation of new Zen4 desktop APUs. Who would be a better source for such a claim apart from AMD themselves. The company has reportedly listed Ryzen 7045HX Series Desktop processors as supported by the chipset driver. The...

videocardz.com

Appears that Dragon Range is coming to desktop. Guessing BGA for SFF and AIOs.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Appears that Dragon Range is coming to desktop. Guessing BGA for SFF and AIOs.

Seems superfluous but hey why not? SFF/AiO builders prefer using mobile hardware.

 

[uzzi38]

AMD chipset drivers list Ryzen 7045HX CPU series for 'desktops' - VideoCardz.com

AMD Dragon Range supposedly coming to desktops Either a mistake or a confirmation of new Zen4 desktop APUs. Who would be a better source for such a claim apart from AMD themselves. The company has reportedly listed Ryzen 7045HX Series Desktop processors as supported by the chipset driver. The...

videocardz.com

Appears that Dragon Range is coming to desktop. Guessing BGA for SFF and AIOs.

Huh? That doesn't make sense, Dragon Range doesn't come with a chipset, and the one almost miniPC I've seen with it also doesn't run a chipset

 

[Abwx]

AMD chipset drivers list Ryzen 7045HX CPU series for 'desktops' - VideoCardz.com

AMD Dragon Range supposedly coming to desktops Either a mistake or a confirmation of new Zen4 desktop APUs. Who would be a better source for such a claim apart from AMD themselves. The company has reportedly listed Ryzen 7045HX Series Desktop processors as supported by the chipset driver. The...

videocardz.com

Appears that Dragon Range is coming to desktop. Guessing BGA for SFF and AIOs.

It look like this, and there s also an Intel version :

Minisforum teases mini PCs powered by AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX and Intel i9-13900HX processors

At its Computex 2023 booth, Minisforum is displaying motherboards that will be featured in high-end mini PCs launching towards the end of 2023. Both the Intel and the AMD models feature a PCIe 4.0 slot for a full-size GPU that can be connected via a riser cable.

www.notebookcheck.net

 

[A///]

Seems superfluous but hey why not? SFF/AiO builders prefer using mobile hardware.

It's been a hot minute since desktop hardware made sense due to heat output. the nuc13 uses full size hardware and that's a heathen if you account for the i9 desktop in there in the limited space.

 

[A///]

It look like this, and there s also an Intel version :

Minisforum teases mini PCs powered by AMD Ryzen 9 7945HX and Intel i9-13900HX processors

At its Computex 2023 booth, Minisforum is displaying motherboards that will be featured in high-end mini PCs launching towards the end of 2023. Both the Intel and the AMD models feature a PCIe 4.0 slot for a full-size GPU that can be connected via a riser cable.

www.notebookcheck.net

I saw their exhibits on youtube at computex this year. I want to get one of their bare bones models and put my own picked out hardware into it. it's a very impressive platform and mini computer. they're pushing out hardware combos that few others do. mini pc's need more love than they currently get.

 

[Abwx]

I saw their exhibits on youtube at computex this year. I want to get one of their bare bones models and put my own picked out hardware into it. it's a very impressive platform and mini computer. they're pushing out hardware combos that few others do. mini pc's need more love than they currently get.

That s a very good idea from Minisforum but it would be better to use a socketed version rather than a BGA, AMD should release a 65W 7950 with optimised voltage curve like the 7945HX eventually, but even without optimisation it would be relevant and more appaling than the 230W one.

So far high powered PCs are of no interest for 80-90% of the users, most would be content with a 8C Zen 4, like the one below using a U version at 25W :

Minisforum presents Mercury EM780 palm-size mini PC with AMD Ryzen Phoenix 7840U and dual-USB4 ports

The EM780 is among the smallest mini PCs made by Minisforum, but it can support up to a Ryzen 7 7840U with eight Zen 4 cores and an RDNA 3 Radeon 780M. Despite the tiny case, Minisforum even managed to add active coolers for the processor and the M.2 storage.

www.notebookcheck.net

This one using a RMB would be great with a 7840HS :

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Ace-Magician-AM08-Pro-gaming-mini-PC-with-Radeon-680M-and-Ryzen-9-6900HX-in-our-extensive-test.723239.0.html

 

[DrMrLordX]

It's been a hot minute since desktop hardware made sense due to heat output.

Nah there's the non-X AM5 parts which could easily slot in where OEMs are instead using Dragon Range. They all have a 65W TDP, and OEMs could easily cap total power usage if they so desired. BoM for Dragon Range is probably lower though.

 

[A///]

Nah there's the non-X AM5 parts which could easily slot in where OEMs are instead using Dragon Range. They all have a 65W TDP, and OEMs could easily cap total power usage if they so desired. BoM for Dragon Range is probably lower though.

Who is selling those?

 

[DrMrLordX]

Who is selling those?

In DiY space?

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/cpu/#m=6&F=99&k=41&B=20000000000,65000000000

Take your pick. I haven't seen them in OEM machines outside of a single ibuypower system, though I suspect they'll find their way into a number of corporate mid towers.

 

[tamz_msc]

Details on Zen 4c and Bergamo:

Zen 4c: AMD’s Response to Hyperscale ARM & Intel Atom

Bergamo Volumes, ASP, Performance, Hyperscale Order Shift, Die Shot, Floorplan, Physical Design, and Future Use of Dense Core Variants

www.semianalysis.com

Core area reduction was achieved through a combination of partition and layout changes, lower frequency target, and denser cells. The overall core area reduction was 35.4 percent.

 

[A///]

cheers, quite the read that.

 

[soresu]

Details on Zen 4c and Bergamo:

Zen 4c: AMD’s Response to Hyperscale ARM & Intel Atom

Bergamo Volumes, ASP, Performance, Hyperscale Order Shift, Die Shot, Floorplan, Physical Design, and Future Use of Dense Core Variants

www.semianalysis.com

Core area reduction was achieved through a combination of partition and layout changes, lower frequency target, and denser cells. The overall core area reduction was 35.4 percent.

Just imagine what they could achieve with totally stacked L3$, especially if they also embraced newer variants of MRAM (like SOT MRAM) to replace SRAM for that level.

 

[eek2121]

Details on Zen 4c and Bergamo:

Zen 4c: AMD’s Response to Hyperscale ARM & Intel Atom

Bergamo Volumes, ASP, Performance, Hyperscale Order Shift, Die Shot, Floorplan, Physical Design, and Future Use of Dense Core Variants

www.semianalysis.com

Core area reduction was achieved through a combination of partition and layout changes, lower frequency target, and denser cells. The overall core area reduction was 35.4 percent.

…and half the L3 cache. I am curious as to the performance impact of that.

Imagine if AMD had dropped a chip with a binned 7950x CCD and one of these (8+16). Intel would have gotten absolutely creamed.

 

[moinmoin]

…and half the L3 cache. I am curious as to the performance impact of that.

Check out any mobile chip.

I recall reading some reviews a couple years ago (likely using Renoir and Matisse) that looked into this, but I can't find it anymore.

 

[Timorous]

Interesting that 7000U is using Zen4c cores.

 

[Timorous]

…and half the L3 cache. I am curious as to the performance impact of that.

Imagine if AMD had dropped a chip with a binned 7950x CCD and one of these (8+16). Intel would have gotten absolutely creamed.

That could happen if AMD felt like they wanted more MT in the desktop space. Maybe if Raptor lake refresh takes the crown AMD will come back with that.

Alternatively it could happen with Zen 5 as an Arrow Lake spoiler before Zen 6 hits.

AMD also have the option of pairing the 8c die with v-cache if they want as well to make it a true jack of all kind of CPU.

 

[DrMrLordX]

…and half the L3 cache. I am curious as to the performance impact of that.

Isn't Bergamo aimed at the cloud sector? We've already seen multiple ARM server products aimed at the cloud with reduced L3, such as the Ampere Altra MAX line of CPUs.

 

[uzzi38]

Interesting that 7000U is using Zen4c cores.

It's not yet, but it sounds like eventually 7540U and 7340U will have PHX2 variants

 

[A///]

That could happen if AMD felt like they wanted more MT in the desktop space. Maybe if Raptor lake refresh takes the crown AMD will come back with that.

Alternatively it could happen with Zen 5 as an Arrow Lake spoiler before Zen 6 hits.

In desktop there would be no point in releasing new mid gen processors like they did with the lacklustre xt's which @DrMrLordX complained about non stop. the timelines for arrow lake and zen 5 appear closer but it relies on amd having enough supply, a good product, being out faster than anticipated and affordable. Z890 chipsets for arrow lake will have feature parity with am5.

the catch here is the parity. will intel or amd have pcie6 available? I say both. and before you question it yes it was finalized over a year ago and is due to be produced on mainboards. the pcie3 to pcie4 time period was a holdover for numerous amendments that delayed its release. it means little for graphics cards and storage seeing the lackluster pcie5 nvme's on the market, but it's the lane count that matters. being able to run multiple drives then in the future of pcie4 or pcie5 without incurring lane shortages whilst using a high end gpu is the end game., or any pcie card or device like a multi drive card or two. Zen 5 and zen 5 3d should be the end game for am5 because amd will be spending time honing am6 which will likely brandish then new ddr6 alongside intel. we'll see a repeat of high initial prices and then bottoming out. although this may be minimized if production ramps up and the ai bullshit craze is still around.

 

[Timorous]

In desktop there would be no point in releasing new mid gen processors like they did with the lacklustre xt's which @DrMrLordX complained about non stop. the timelines for arrow lake and zen 5 appear closer but it relies on amd having enough supply, a good product, being out faster than anticipated and affordable. Z890 chipsets for arrow lake will have feature parity with am5.

the catch here is the parity. will intel or amd have pcie6 available? I say both. and before you question it yes it was finalized over a year ago and is due to be produced on mainboards. the pcie3 to pcie4 time period was a holdover for numerous amendments that delayed its release. it means little for graphics cards and storage seeing the lackluster pcie5 nvme's on the market, but it's the lane count that matters. being able to run multiple drives then in the future of pcie4 or pcie5 without incurring lane shortages whilst using a high end gpu is the end game., or any pcie card or device like a multi drive card or two. Zen 5 and zen 5 3d should be the end game for am5 because amd will be spending time honing am6 which will likely brandish then new ddr6 alongside intel. we'll see a repeat of high initial prices and then bottoming out. although this may be minimized if production ramps up and the ai bullshit craze is still around.

AMD have the options to take the outright performance crown. If Zen5 is a year+ away and Raptor lake starts to eat their lunch a 24c Zen4 3d part is entirely doable should AMD choose.

 

[Markfw]

AMD have the options to take the outright performance crown. If Zen5 is a year+ away and Raptor lake starts to eat their lunch a 24c Zen4 3d part is entirely doable should AMD choose.

AMD ALREADY has the outright performance crown. Gaming, laptop, server, HEDT, and the closest Intel gets is desktop space, and that is arguably the best case scenario for Intel, a tie.

 

[A///]

AMD have the options to take the outright performance crown. If Zen5 is a year+ away and Raptor lake starts to eat their lunch a 24c Zen4 3d part is entirely doable should AMD choose.

give me a few grams of whatever you're using.

 

[Geddagod]

Details on Zen 4c and Bergamo:

Zen 4c: AMD’s Response to Hyperscale ARM & Intel Atom

Bergamo Volumes, ASP, Performance, Hyperscale Order Shift, Die Shot, Floorplan, Physical Design, and Future Use of Dense Core Variants

www.semianalysis.com

Core area reduction was achieved through a combination of partition and layout changes, lower frequency target, and denser cells. The overall core area reduction was 35.4 percent.

Very impressive shrink. Wonder what clocks would look like though.