Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

On another note, the 2 IFoP on Zen4c made me think: Either it is just for low CCD count SKUs - simple as that. Or what about some kind of bridge in the CPU base die from IFoP to InFO-RDL for MI300? Any opinions?

 

[nicalandia]

Wow, Bergamo CCD with 16 cores is a tiny bigger than Genoa.

 

[Abwx]

Zen 4 mobile used for DT, although it seems OEM dedicated but those chips are generally available in some retail stores :

AMD Ryzen Pro 7000 processors now available for desktop workstations

AMD has unveiled its new Zen 4-based Ryzen 7000 chips for desktops. It has three SKUs, the Ryzen 9 Pro 7945, Ryzen 7 Pro 7745 and Ryzen 5 Pro 7645. All three 5 nm chips will run in any AM5 motherboard and support DDR5 memory and PCIe Gen 5 peripherals.

www.notebookcheck.net

Edit, i thought at first that these were APUs, would be great that they also release Phoenix based SKUs for DT...

 

[jpiniero]

Edit, i thought at first that these were APUs, would be great that they also release Phoenix based SKUs for DT...

There really isn't a point. The included IGP is more than capable for everything other than gaming. Not to mention it's probally cheaper for AMD to manufacture compared to Phoenix.

They may still release some Phoenix Desktop SKUs eventually if they have excess supply or to dump the IGP busted parts.

 

[Abwx]

There really isn't a point. The included IGP is more than capable for everything other than gaming. Not to mention it's probally cheaper for AMD to manufacture compared to Phoenix.

They may still release some Phoenix Desktop SKUs eventually if they have excess supply or to dump the IGP busted parts.

Those parts have much better idle power than the regular desktop variants at 8-10W instead of 13-19W, but a 8-12CU IGP would make sense for whom want to build a 620 chipset based ITX DT usable for basic gaming, so far these are only available in OEMs offerings that use BGA parts, so not upgradable with future AM5 SKUs itérations.

 

[eek2121]

The best I can do on the 9554, 3.48@100 load
View attachment 81442

According to AMD, the official numbers for the 9554 are base: 3.1, all-core boost: 3.75.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/cpu/amd-epyc-9554

I think you're wrong with your prediction: I do not expect that gap between Zen 5 and Zen 4 would be equally big as it was between Zen 4 and Zen 3 (about 23 months).
I'm expecting that Zen 5 will be released on spring next year, 18-19 months after Zen 4.

I am expecting either a January announcement and March/April release or Computex announcement with a June/July release. They may even try to be silly with a 5/5 release, but I doubt it.

If I had to lean one way or the other I would say Computex for desktop chips, and laptop chips announced in January.

 

[deasd]

Nobody interested in MI300?

AMD MI300 – Taming The Hype – AI Performance, Volume Ramp, Customers, Cost, IO, Networking, Software

Amazing engineering, but what of the path to market?

www.semianalysis.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1668336715348742145

It's 24 Zen4 cores (3 CCDs * 8 cores) afterall.

 

[jpiniero]

Those parts have much better idle power than the regular desktop variants at 8-10W instead of 13-19W, but a 8-12CU IGP would make sense for whom want to build a 620 chipset based ITX DT usable for basic gaming, so far these are only available in OEMs offerings that use BGA parts, so not upgradable with future AM5 SKUs itérations.

AMD's website says they are AM5.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-9-pro-7945

 

[igor_kavinski]

AMD's website says they are AM5.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-9-pro-7945

Wish they had put even just 16MB V-cache on it.

 

[moinmoin]

Su explicitly mentioned that the IOD in Bergamo is the same as in Genoa, so the Zen 4c CCDs should be fully compatible with the usual CCDs an may well appear in consumer chips as well.

Also called Genoa optimized for performance-per-core and Bergamo optimized for performance-per-watt. Makes it sound like the latter should have been used for Dragon Range, maybe that will still come?

 

[Abwx]

AMD's website says they are AM5.

https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-9-pro-7945

Yes, i know about it, but these are the Raphael based parts used for laptops, so far there s no AM5 Phoenix in sight, and i was talking of BGA Phoenix used in various mini DT that are not upgradable with next gen CPUs, an AM5 Phoenix part could be later replaced by a Zen 5 APU.

 

[jpiniero]

Yes, i know about it, but these are the Raphael based parts used for laptops

There is nothing to suggest that is the case.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

Su explicitly mentioned that the IOD in Bergamo is the same as in Genoa, so the Zen 4c CCDs should be fully compatible with the usual CCDs an may well appear in consumer chips as well.

Also called Genoa optimized for performance-per-core and Bergamo optimized for performance-per-watt. Makes it sound like the latter should have been used for Dragon Range, maybe that will still come?

Surely there might be some people out there ready to pull the trigger for a 32c/64t Mobile Workstation 😉
And as you say, that should be next to no effort for AMD and OEMs, the only limiting factor being supply (as they might sell each CCD in DC for much more).

 

[soresu]

Surely there might be some people out there ready to pull the trigger for a 32c/64t Mobile Workstation 😉

Depends how much the combo drop in frequency and L3$ per core offsets the increase in cores overall from 16 to 32.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

Depends how much the combo drop in frequency and L3$ per core offsets the increase in cores overall from 16 to 32.

I would say, even more than for Bergamo vs. Genoa in embarrassingly parallel workloads:

• Twice the cores instead of 50% more
• Even further constrained TDP budget

Ofc that is nothing for people who just want to play or have other lightly threaded workloads.

 

[eek2121]

Depends how much the combo drop in frequency and L3$ per core offsets the increase in cores overall from 16 to 32.

I would say, even more than for Bergamo vs. Genoa in embarrassingly parallel workloads:

• Twice the cores instead of 50% more
• Even further constrained TDP budget

Ofc that is nothing for people who just want to play or have other lightly threaded workloads.

The 7950X suffers very little going from 170->105w. shoot, at 65W the 7950X is slower, but still spanks a 5950X.

I say that because I don’t think thermal headroom would be an issue. That being said, AMD already indicated long ago that Zen4c was for cloud scenarios and IIRC it was stated at one point that the chiplet would not be coming to desktop.

Likely we will see some future iteration, however.

 

[soresu]

The 7950X suffers very little going from 170->105w. shoot, at 65W the 7950X is slower, but still spanks a 5950X.

I'd imagine that the perf/watt is through the roof too.

 

[eek2121]

I'd imagine that the perf/watt is through the roof too.

The 7950X? At 65W? Absolutely. For example, 33k cinebench vs 26k on the 5950x. (vs 38k stock for the 7950x)

These chips were made for low power consumption. AMD just felt the need to blast them with power to compete with Intel.

 

[Abwx]

Vray numbers for AMD and Intel s latest :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1669002027253518336

 

[nicalandia]

The New King.....

 

[Geddagod]

Impressive how Genoa only clocks 200mhz faster than Bergamo despite having way fewer cores. Of course that's assuming power draw is equivalent.

 

[Markfw]

Impressive how Genoa only clocks 200mhz faster than Bergamo despite having way fewer cores. Of course that's assuming power draw is equivalent.

Not sure how this app works, but my 9654 runs 2400-2750 depending on load. The 9554 seems to run at 3.5 no matter what the load, but thats windows. I will have a 9554 linux system also later this week. But its interesting that its running faster than the 9654. I would love to see the 9654 and 9554 ghz speeds here. I don't see it on that link.

 

[Mopetar]

Impressive how Genoa only clocks 200mhz faster than Bergamo despite having way fewer cores. Of course that's assuming power draw is equivalent.

It's not that surprising. The last 100 MHz always eats up a lot more power than the first 100 MHz.

The extra frequency isn't the killer, but the voltage necessary to drive the chip at that clock speeds while keeping it stable is what does it.

Power = CV[sup]2[/sup]F, where V is the voltage and F is the frequency.

If you only raise or drop the frequency it just increases the power proportional to that. However, the voltage usually rises or falls along with the maximum frequency so a 10% reduction in both voltage and frequency is actually a .9[sup]3[/sup] or ~37% reduction in power. Add in 50% more cores and you're only using 10% more power than originally.

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

The 7950X? At 65W? Absolutely. For example, 33k cinebench vs 26k on the 5950x. (vs 38k stock for the 7950x)

These chips were made for low power consumption. AMD just felt the need to blast them with power to compete with Intel.

Just have a look at the Top 10 of the MT PES ranking 😉

Discussion - PES | Assessing Power and Performance Efficiency of x86 CPU architectures

Dear Community, so this is my first thread here as a long-time lurker - but I felt the desire to share a small hobby-project of mine from the last couple of months with you... Performance Efficiency Suite - What is it about? Most Reviewers solely focus on what they consider to be the most...

forums.anandtech.com

 

[BorisTheBlade82]

Impressive how Genoa only clocks 200mhz faster than Bergamo despite having way fewer cores. Of course that's assuming power draw is equivalent.

That was to be expected.
The most impressive comparison from the tweet above IMHO is this:
EPYC 9754 128c - 132.5k
EPYC 9654 96c - 94k
That's +41% for only around 70% 5nm area at the same TDP.