Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[igor_kavinski]

I think we'll see 128 GB kits on consumer setups being available near the end of DDR5's life

You mean 2x64GB? It is already possible to do 192GB on Intel Z790 with 4x48GB.

 

[Markfw]

He runs servers which is why I brought it up. I think we'll see 128 GB kits on consumer setups being available near the end of DDR5's life which is in 3-4 years going by historical timelines and following development news of ddr6. I think 96 gb on two sticks is doable now but I suspect the market for that is slim or I don't know power user demographics as well as I think I do.

Since Genoa is 12 channel, even 16 gig dimms give me 192 gig, and the most I have ever seen them use is 184 gig. Usually its around 150 gig.

 

[A///]

Since Genoa is 12 channel, even 16 gig dimms give me 192 gig, and the most I have ever seen them use is 184 gig. Usually its around 150 gig.

You would be limited in that case to how much memory the board can adddress. At am5 and raptor's launch I didnt think 192 GB would be possible on a consumer board. Then again the 8000 ddr5 speed now available on am5 puzzles me even more when it's largely useless at this point in time.

 

[A///]

You mean 2x64GB? It is already possible to do 192GB on Intel Z790 with 4x48GB.

Yes, what else would I be referring to? I saw a white paper a year ago referring to consumers having access to 256 GB loadouts in the future on ddr6. It seems like excess and it may very well be but more memory makes things run like fluid. the 96 gb kits that came out a few months ago have almost halfed in price since their release.

 

[Mopetar]

I think 96 gb on two sticks is doable now but I suspect the market for that is slim or I don't know power user demographics as well as I think I do.

I know plenty of people who never close tabs in Chrome. 96 GB of RAM is perfect for their use case, even if they're not what you'd traditionally consider a power user.

 

[A///]

I know plenty of people who never close tabs in Chrome. 96 GB of RAM is perfect for their use case, even if they're not what you'd traditionally consider a power user.

that's one example I was thinking of but it almost seems meme like. 96 gb would cut down on any drive activity under memory swap. I know some people disable swap space after having a certain amount of memory but it's still useful to have it turned on.

 

[Mopetar]

It's a bit of a meme, but there aren't a lot of people who need that much memory, but not any additional memory bandwidth. Workstations that currently have that or more have more memory channels as well so the higher capacity isn't as big of a deal.

 

[biostud]

He runs servers which is why I brought it up. I think we'll see 128 GB kits on consumer setups being available near the end of DDR5's life which is in 3-4 years going by historical timelines and following development news of ddr6. I think 96 gb on two sticks is doable now but I suspect the market for that is slim or I don't know power user demographics as well as I think I do.

Samsung Electronics Unveils Industry’s Highest-Capacity 12nm-Class 32Gb DDR5 DRAM, Ideal for the AI Era

Provides double the capacity of 16Gb modules within the same package size, enabling 128GB DRAM module production without the TSV process and decreasing power consumption by 10% The new product also paves way to DRAM modules of up to 1TB capacity With the expanded lineup of 12nm-class DRAM...

news.samsung.com

Whadda'ya know

 

[A///]

Samsung Electronics Unveils Industry’s Highest-Capacity 12nm-Class 32Gb DDR5 DRAM, Ideal for the AI Era

Provides double the capacity of 16Gb modules within the same package size, enabling 128GB DRAM module production without the TSV process and decreasing power consumption by 10% The new product also paves way to DRAM modules of up to 1TB capacity With the expanded lineup of 12nm-class DRAM...

news.samsung.com

Whadda'ya know

dunno if it makes a difference to you @Markfw but Samsung has announced they'll be manufacturing 32Gb DDR5 dimms by end of this year. I assume epyc and ryzen platforms will get another update for more RAM capacity.

 

[Doug S]

Micron had already announced they would be selling 32Gb DDR5 chips early next year, so presumably DIMMs made from 32Gb DRAMs whether Samsung's or Micron's will be widely available by this time next year.

Probably those 32 Gb chips will be fairly pricey, but I'm hoping that makes the 24Gb chips even cheaper. Building a new PC this fall/winter and 48 GB sounds like just the right amount of overkill for the RAM! A nice round one million times more RAM than my first computer

 

[A///]

Micron had already announced they would be selling 32Gb DDR5 chips early next year, so presumably DIMMs made from 32Gb DRAMs whether Samsung's or Micron's will be widely available by this time next year.

Probably those 32 Gb chips will be fairly pricey, but I'm hoping that makes the 24Gb chips even cheaper. Building a new PC this fall/winter and 48 GB sounds like just the right amount of overkill for the RAM! A nice round one million times more RAM than my first computer

48 gb kits are already fairly cheap no? any news on sk making 32 Gb ic's? It might have been @igor_kavinski who mentioned his personal computer having 64 GB and windows using a decent amount of the ram but it being a better experience or someone else. The 96 GB kits are on the cusp of being very affordable IMO. that's if you need that kind of memory.

 

[igor_kavinski]

It might have been @igor_kavinski who mentioned his personal computer having 64 GB

Nah. My main browsing laptop has 32GB. I do have a used Dell Precision laptop now with a Xeon CPU and 64GB ECC RAM that I got from these forums but it has Win11 on it and I'm too lazy to mess with it and start using it as my browsing machine. Currently enjoying its glorious calibrated 4K screen for my regular movie watching. It's good enough that I haven't turned on my LG OLED TV since I moved to a new studio flat.

 

[A///]

Nah. My main browsing laptop has 32GB. I do have a used Dell Precision laptop now with a Xeon CPU and 64GB ECC RAM that I got from these forums but it has Win11 on it and I'm too lazy to mess with it and start using it as my browsing machine. Currently enjoying its glorious calibrated 4K screen for my regular movie watching. It's good enough that I haven't turned on my LG OLED TV since I moved to a new studio flat.

it may have been a passing comment on ram use. if there being more windows will use more at idle but it makes for a smoother experience. there is an upper limit on how much the os will use if you have quite a lot of ram ofc.

 

[Thibsie]

I know plenty of people who never close tabs in Chrome. 96 GB of RAM is perfect for their use case, even if they're not what you'd traditionally consider a power user.

Is that so ? XD

 

[eek2121]

I know plenty of people who never close tabs in Chrome. 96 GB of RAM is perfect for their use case, even if they're not what you'd traditionally consider a power user.

I have never had Chrome eat a ton of RAM even when I did use it. Now I use Firefox. I do close all my tabs, however.

It is not uncommon for me to have a dozen or more open at once.

I have 64gb of RAM and gaming along with my productivity workloads consume the most. My browser is an afterthought. 64gb compared to 32gb? For me there was a minor, but noticeable improvement. 16gb -> 32gb? The difference was pretty drastic.

that's one example I was thinking of but it almost seems meme like. 96 gb would cut down on any drive activity under memory swap. I know some people disable swap space after having a certain amount of memory but it's still useful to have it turned on.

You should never disable the swapfile. Overall performance will be lower if you do.

 

[Ajay]

Micron had already announced they would be selling 32Gb DDR5 chips early next year, so presumably DIMMs made from 32Gb DRAMs whether Samsung's or Micron's will be widely available by this time next year.

Probably those 32 Gb chips will be fairly pricey, but I'm hoping that makes the 24Gb chips even cheaper. Building a new PC this fall/winter and 48 GB sounds like just the right amount of overkill for the RAM! A nice round one million times more RAM than my first computer

Yaeh, in my next build, I'd love 48GB. I bump up against 32GB from time to time. I hate having to close stuff.

 

[A///]

You should never disable the swapfile. Overall performance will be lower if you do.

That is true, yet many people do. I believe it's one of the old must dos back from when ssd was new to the scene and people were overly cautious of ssd wear.

but noticeable improvement. 16gb -> 32gb? The difference was pretty drastic.

I agree, for me 8 to 16 was also a big step up back in the day. It felt like a waste of money getting 16 gb of ddr4 the first time almost 10 years ago but it made a major difference to my personal work flow. I'm happy as jellied eel with 32 gb.

 

[LightningZ71]

If you've got an extra m.2 pcie slot, windows loves it when you get a dirt cheap 32GB optane drive, put it in there, and move the swap file to it. Seems to help a bit with everything.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Yaeh, in my next build, I'd love 48GB. I bump up against 32GB from time to time. I hate having to close stuff.

What do you run? If it's browsing, especially with Firefox, the best way is to just close a few tabs in Firefox task manager, especially ones like googlesyndication and related to ads etc. That easily frees up 10% of RAM.

 

[A///]

What do you run? If it's browsing, especially with Firefox, the best way is to just close a few tabs in Firefox task manager, especially ones like googlesyndication and related to ads etc. That easily frees up 10% of RAM.

Buying more RAM is cheaper and less time consuming than training yourself with new habits. All this ram talk has me considering bigger kits myself and the price differential is so small for a better qol experience.

 

[Ajay]

What do you run? If it's browsing, especially with Firefox, the best way is to just close a few tabs in Firefox task manager, especially ones like googlesyndication and related to ads etc. That easily frees up 10% of RAM.

bunch of stuff. Sometimes 3 browsers - and Firefox sure is a pig. Outlook, maybe VS studio, maybe a virtual machine running. Bunch of background utilities and game launchers that all the gaming companies require these days, then I decide to play a game - and get a memory warning from windows. Anywho, when I build a new machine in a few years, I'll go with 48-64GB of DDR5.

 

[Markfw]

bunch of stuff. Sometimes 3 browsers - and Firefox sure is a pig. Outlook, maybe VS studio, maybe a virtual machine running. Bunch of background utilities and game launchers that all the gaming companies require these days, then I decide to play a game - and get a memory warning from windows. Anywho, when I build a new machine in a few years, I'll go with 48-64GB of DDR5.

DDR5 ? I think you need to update your sig.

Edit, I see now, when you build next..... Duh...I need a beer/.

 

[bakyt115]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1700467409591889941

phoenix 2 die shot.

cores layout are not symmetrical.

 

[naukkis]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1700467409591889941

phoenix 2 die shot.

cores layout are not symmetrical.

And as seen, both regular and C-cores share shame ring and L3-cache.

 

[Ajay]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1700467409591889941

phoenix 2 die shot.

cores layout are not symmetrical.

Ugh, hope someone annotates this soon. THX.