Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[StefanR5R]

PPS,
here is a diagram from ASUS's S14NA-U12 mainboard documentation:
https://www.servethehome.com/asus-s14na-u12-amd-epyc-8004-siena-motherboard-review-broadcom/2/

This shows memory channels A, B, D, E, F, H routed to the DIMM sockets. *If* these were the same channel names as AMD's naming of Genoa's memory channels, then that would be really weird: 2 channels at the first quadrant, 3 at the second, 1 at the third, 0 at the fourth.

 

[MadRat]

Are you sure the channels are quantities and not simply names? It makes sense for there to be channels 0, 1, 2, and 3.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Don't see anything weird there. 6 channels with two RDIMMs per channel.

 

[StefanR5R]

Let me rephrase the last sentence of my previous post:
It would be really weird if these were the same channel names as AMD's naming of Genoa's memory channels, as it would mean 2 channels at the first quadrant, 3 at the second, 1 at the third, 0 at the fourth.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Let me rephrase the last sentence of my previous post:
It would be really weird if these were the same channel names as AMD's naming of Genoa's memory channels, as it would mean 2 channels at the first quadrant, 3 at the second, 1 at the third, 0 at the fourth.

Maybe they are using some sort of UEFI level abstraction scheme?

 

[SteinFG]

PPS,
here is a diagram from ASUS's S14NA-U12 mainboard documentation:
https://www.servethehome.com/asus-s14na-u12-amd-epyc-8004-siena-motherboard-review-broadcom/2/

This shows memory channels A, B, D, E, F, H routed to the DIMM sockets. *If* these were the same channel names as AMD's naming of Genoa's memory channels, then that would be really weird: 2 channels at the first quadrant, 3 at the second, 1 at the third, 0 at the fourth.

SP6 platform uses LGA4844, and this socket suports up to 8 channels of memory (TR PRO uses the same LGA4844 socket, and has 8 memory channels).
SP6 only uses 6 of them (2 in 2 quadrants, and 1 in other 2 quadrants). So letters C and G are skipped. That's it.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

AMD reportedly preparing sub-$100 Athlon/Ryzen 3 CPUs for AM5 platform - VideoCardz.com

Cheaper SKUs for AM5 According to Italian media Bits and Chips, AMD is reportedly launching a new series of budget CPUs for AM5 socket. Currently, the cheapest AMD Ryzen 7000 CPU is the Ryzen 5 7500F, a 6-core variant sold exclusively in certain markets. It is relatively easy to find on...

videocardz.com

AMD is planning to port Zen 4 to TSMC N6/N7. Specfically the Ryzen 7500F and 7600

 

[naukkis]

AMD reportedly preparing sub-$100 Athlon/Ryzen 3 CPUs for AM5 platform - VideoCardz.com

Cheaper SKUs for AM5 According to Italian media Bits and Chips, AMD is reportedly launching a new series of budget CPUs for AM5 socket. Currently, the cheapest AMD Ryzen 7000 CPU is the Ryzen 5 7500F, a 6-core variant sold exclusively in certain markets. It is relatively easy to find on...

videocardz.com

AMD is planning to port Zen 4 to TSMC N6/N7. Specfically the Ryzen 7500F and 7600

I'm pretty sure that they won't. It does not make any sense. Instead they are probably introducing some of their older Zen3 7nm-chips to AM5.

 

[jpiniero]

I'm pretty sure that they won't. It does not make any sense. Instead they are probably introducing some of their older Zen3 7nm-chips to AM5.

That doesn't make much sense either, given that they would have to update it to use DDR5. Unless it's just getting rid of the Rembrandt that has a busted IGP.

 

[igor_kavinski]

That doesn't make much sense either, given that they would have to update it to use DDR5.

Hey, maybe a bunch of engineers were bored and did just that?

 

[Abwx]

AMD reportedly preparing sub-$100 Athlon/Ryzen 3 CPUs for AM5 platform - VideoCardz.com

Cheaper SKUs for AM5 According to Italian media Bits and Chips, AMD is reportedly launching a new series of budget CPUs for AM5 socket. Currently, the cheapest AMD Ryzen 7000 CPU is the Ryzen 5 7500F, a 6-core variant sold exclusively in certain markets. It is relatively easy to find on...

videocardz.com

AMD is planning to port Zen 4 to TSMC N6/N7. Specfically the Ryzen 7500F and 7600

7500F and 7600 are 8C CCDs with two cores disabled, so that doesnt make sense unless that s a 8C CCD that is ported, also using two dies, CCD + IOD, for a low cost chip is dubbious.

That doesn't make much sense either, given that they would have to update it to use DDR5. Unless it's just getting rid of the Rembrandt that has a busted IGP.

All they have to do is to connect the Zen 3 CCD to a Zen 4 IOD, likewise they could even connect a Zen 4 CCD to a 5000 series IOD and have Zen 4 working on AM4, everything is possible here, that s just a question of market size.

 

[igor_kavinski]

...likewise they could even connect a Zen 4 CCD to a 5000 series IOD and have Zen 4 working on AM4...

I see that as a possibility when the Zen 3 chip production from TSMC starts waning and AMD still has a lot of Zen 4 chips to get rid of. They could speed up the process of turning those slabs of rock into pure profit by enticing existing AM4 users with the promise of Zen 4 with low latency DDR4-3800 CL14!!!

And AMD tech has a lot longer life than anything Intel because it's just so good. Imagine those Zen 3 users upgrading to AM4 Zen 4 chips and then passing on their Zen 3 chips to existing AM4 Zen, Zen+ and Zen 2 users. It's like a frickin' pyramid scheme except everyone actually gets more performance

 

[Abwx]

I see that as a possibility when the Zen 3 chip production from TSMC starts waning and AMD still has a lot of Zen 4 chips to get rid of. They could speed up the process of turning those slabs of rock into pure profit by enticing existing AM4 users with the promise of Zen 4 with low latency DDR4-3800 CL14!!!

And AMD tech has a lot longer life than anything Intel because it's just so good. Imagine those Zen 3 users upgrading to AM4 Zen 4 chips and then passing on their Zen 3 chips to existing AM4 Zen, Zen+ and Zen 2 users. It's like a frickin' pyramid scheme except everyone actually gets more performance

That would be a much better idea than adapting Zen 3 to AM5 wich would be just competing with themselves within this plateform; i would think that Zen 4 is supposed to become AM5 s low cost offering.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

I don't know the validity of porting Zen 4 back to N7 family. But it would be in AMD interests to provide an entry-point to their AM5 platform, allowing future user upgrades on the same platform and effectively locking users off Intel for an entire generation.

But, granted, I don't understand why that would be needed when they could simply sell Ryzen 7500F worldwide and cut MSRP on it. Unless they're doing a specialized Zen 4 6-core CCD on N7/N6.

 

[SteinFG]

You don't need to make a backported chip to replace 7600/7500F. Kraken would do it without spending millions on a new chip. 9400F will probably be about on par with 7600

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Kraken would do it

Kraken is a 8 Core + 4 WGPs. That alone puts it at a premium on Desktop.

Besides, it will take a while for Zen 5 APUs to be released on DT. AMD probably needs something with faster ttm.

 

[SteinFG]

Kraken is a 8 Core + 4 WGPs. That alone puts it at a premium on Desktop.

Besides, it will take a while for Zen 5 APUs to be released on DT. AMD probably needs something with faster ttm.

Ryzen 5500 is Cezanne, which is 8 Cores + 8 CUs when not binned. Doesn't mean that 5500 is a premium cpu

 

[StefanR5R]

The bitsandchips.it article does not claim that anything is ported to 7nm for this purpose, rather they wrote,

These CPUs will not have new Dies.

But then they go on,

They will rebrand low end Ryzen 7000 CPUs, produced on TSMC 7nm node.

That's a contradiction, as there are no 7nm Ryzen 7000 CPUs yet. Maybe it's because the author is not a native English speaker, and what really was meant is that chips taken from a different series will be called Ryzen 7000 after the rebrand.

Disclaimer: I never heard of bitsandchips.it before and don't know how they operate, notably whether or not they make stuff up or spread unverified rumors.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Ryzen 5500 is Cezanne, which is 8 Cores + 8 CUs when not binned. Doesn't mean that 5500 is a premium cpu

Why are we comparing a late AM4 release meant for budget with the shiny new thing AMD will yet release next year, boasting their latest IPs and manufacturing?

The point of comparison should be the Ryzen 87/6/500G series, which at high MSRP.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

The bitsandchips.it article does not claim that anything is ported to 7nm for this purpose, rather they wrote,

But then they go on,

That's a contradiction, as there are no 7nm Ryzen 7000 CPUs yet. Maybe it's because the author is not a native English speaker, and what really was meant is that chips taken from a different series will be called Ryzen 7000 after the rebrand.

Disclaimer: I never heard of bitsandchips.it before and don't know how they operate, notably whether or not they make stuff up or spread unverified rumors.

Didn't had noticed the source. This definitely sounds quite fishy. Guess we can treat this as baseless rumor for now.

 

[gdansk]

Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. If there is N7/N6 it is simply the IOd. And it's the same old chips but cut down more.

 

[Abwx]

Disclaimer: I never heard of bitsandchips.it before and don't know how they operate, notably whether or not they make stuff up or spread unverified rumors.

Seems that the guy managing this site is posting here from time to time, perhaps that he ll shed some light on those nebulous infos.

 

[Asterox]

The bitsandchips.it article does not claim that anything is ported to 7nm for this purpose, rather they wrote,
But then they go on,
That's a contradiction, as there are no 7nm Ryzen 7000 CPUs yet. Maybe it's because the author is not a native English speaker, and what really was meant is that chips taken from a different series will be called Ryzen 7000 after the rebrand.
Disclaimer: I never heard of bitsandchips.it before and don't know how they operate, notably whether or not they make stuff up or spread unverified rumors.

In that case, you have been following that segment poorly for the last several years.

They always had good information, or they don't write or mention something just for clickbait nonsense
Just as a reminder, March 2016 what they wrote a year before the launch of the Ryzen 1000 series.

updatebitsandchipsAM4 Socket will be µOPGA and it will have 1331 pins

http://www.bitsandchips.it/english/52-english-news/6773-am4-socket-will-be-uopga-and-it-will-have-1331-pins Future AMD AM4 Socket will be µOPGA, and it will have 1331 pins. A LGA solution will be used for Opteron Zen CPUs. AM4 solution will have the virtue of putting together the plus points...

forums.anandtech.com

AM4 Socket will be µOPGA and it will have 1331 pins

Future AMD AM4 Socket will be µOPGA, and it will have 1331 pins. A LGA solution will be used for Opteron Zen CPUs. AM4 solution will have the virtue of putting together the plus points of the three actual AMD sockets: AM3+, FM2+ and AM1.Like AM3+ Socket, AM4 will be able to support 140+ Watt...

www.bitsandchips.it

 

[Abwx]

On second thoughts that make sense, because they once talked of bringing Rembrandt on AM5 before they abandonned the idea due to the excessive price of DDR5 at the time, that could make a very nice low cost yet powerfull 6-8C APU with a good IGPU.

 

[jpiniero]

On second thoughts that make sense, because they once talked of bringing Rembrandt on AM5 before they abandonned the idea due to the excessive price of DDR5 at the time, that could make a very nice low cost yet powerfull 6-8C APU with a good IGPU.

It's probably not even that if it's Rembrandt. It's probably 4 cores and either 2 CUs or zero.

For under $100, you are talking about stuff headed to the garbage can otherwise.

Edit: AMD released Rembrandt models for mobile that have such specs (See https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-lau...-7435h-apus-with-zen3-cores-and-igpu-disabled, there was an 8 core model too)