Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[inf64]

Raptor Lake and Raphael have effectively the same power limit. I don't understand the infatuation with this 350W "rumor". And you think that applies for gaming of all things? Come on, we have numbers now. Let's use them.

I was referring to the MT performance. Greymon55 twitted that 13900K will only match the stock 7950X while using the "unlimited" mode, so there is that.
For gaming and ST, of course it will not consume 100W more, and it might win by a very small margin. Still, it will be inferior product IMO.

 

[Exist50]

Greymon55 twitted that 13900K will only match the stock 7950X while using the "unlimited" mode, so there is that.

I'll point out that in your comment, you said it would lose in performance and consume 100W more, but whatever. I just don't see the need for the brand wars now that we're getting real products out that people can support with real money. And this is arguably the closest the two companies have been in over a decade. Should be a cause for celebration!

 

[Markfw]

I'll point out that in your comment, you said it would lose in performance and consume 100W more, but whatever. I just don't see the need for the brand wars now that we're getting real products out that people can support with real money. And this is arguably the closest the two companies have been in over a decade. Should be a cause for celebration!

I think it will lose in MT performance, and consume 100 watt more with the 7950x at stock, and the 13900k at unlimited mode.

BUT, when I get mine, I want to see what 105 ECO mode OR the -0.1 vcore trick, and see what happens to performance.

I will grant this is the closest they have been in a while, but I hate those e-cores, and Intel still consumes too much power. But we can tune the argument once we have Raptor lake in hand as well as Zen 4.

Let the war begin (at that time)

 

[Kuiva maa]

Decent launch but I’ll just wait for the X3D units, I know I’ll regret it if I don’t. I am really not sold on what Intel is doing with E-cores at all. I feel it is a huge waste of die era that could have been dedicated for extra cores and maybe cache. Makes me wonder what foveros will bring to the table, especially since with AVX512 and 3D cache implemented, Zen μarch is starting to look very mature, perhaps we will see a slowdown in the next installments? For now I hope there will be a 7900X3D with more total L3 cache than the 7800X3D. I don’t quite need the 16C throughput, 3900X and 5900X served me well anyway. If the choice is between 7800X3D and 7950X3D it will depend solely on price vs performance.

 

[Exist50]

I will grant this is the closest they have been in a while, but I hate those e-cores, and Intel still consumes too much power.

Opinion on E cores aside, you realize the absurdity of complaining something consumes too much power if you manually increase the amount of power it consumes, right? I was hoping AMD and Intel having comparable power limits would kill the topic in favor of more productive discussion.

And yes, Raphael dominates in efficiency with lower power limits and optional manual tuning, but that wasn't the rhetoric leading up to release.

 

[Thunder 57]

What extreme solution would that be? That's the issue here.

Edit: Let's consider some alternatives.

First, liquid metal. Not possible, you'd kill the CPU as liquid metal is conductive and prone to not stay where you put it.

Second, removing the IHS and having people do direct die. Also not viable. It's too risky to have the general public mounting coolers to bare dies. You'd have people killing their CPUs left and right. This would have a huge effect on AMD's reputation and they'd be flooded with RMAs.

Can you think of another extreme solution they could use?

People used to do it all the time pre Athlon 64 / Pentium 4. I do agree it would not be a wise choice today though.

 

[Markfw]

Opinion on E cores aside, you realize the absurdity of complaining something consumes too much power if you manually increase the amount of power it consumes, right? I was hoping AMD and Intel having comparable power limits would kill the topic in favor of more productive discussion.

And yes, Raphael dominates in efficiency with lower power limits and optional manual tuning, but that wasn't the rhetoric leading up to release.

with both at stock, ADL (and most likely Raptor Lake) consume more than the 7950x. The point was, even as "unlimited power" for Raptor lake and stock for 7950x, it still wins.

Now put ADL at 125 watt and the 7950x at 125 watt, and its no contest, ADL loses even worse. If you want to argue at this level, then power consumption arguments go out the window, but then ADL has no chance of winning anything.

 

[Thunder 57]

Remember guys, the 13900T will be the most efficient CPU on "Planet Earth".



Source:

I hope AMD releases reduced power SKU's (non-X models).

 

[Exist50]

with both at stock, ADL (and most likely Raptor Lake) consume more than the 7950x

I consider <10% power differences to be pretty much equivalent for the sake of comparison here. Especially factoring in thermals. Is that unreasonable?

Now put ADL at 125 watt and the 7950x at 125 watt, and its no contest, ADL loses even worse.

Yes, but I'm pointing out that many were quite insistent that Alder Lake be judged at its PL2. Iso-power or iso-perf are indeed better metrics, but let's not pretend the change in rhetoric there was coincidental.

 

[Markfw]

I consider <10% power differences to be pretty much equivalent for the sake of comparison here. Especially factoring in thermals. Is that unreasonable?

Yes, but I'm pointing out that many were quite insistent that Alder Lake be judged at its PL2. Iso-power or iso-perf are indeed better metrics, but let's not pretend the change in rhetoric there was coincidental.

OK, then pic a wattage number, and who wins most if not all benchmarks ? I am pretty sure thats Zen 4. Raptor lake may be better, but based on what I have seen, even more power used (more cores) and marginal performance increase.

Now to sum up (and this is pure opinion) Intel created the E-cores to save power, but kept the power hungry P-cores to help performance. But their node was inferior (and still is) and that is killing them in perf/watt. So they tweaked ADL, and added more e-cores to try and catch Zen 4, and it does not look like that is going to happen. Once they get on a comparable node to AMD, things may get interesting. Thats going to be a while IMO.

Edit, and 100 watts more is not 10% and they will still lose from the leaks.

 

[Exist50]

But their node was inferior (and still is) and that is killing them in perf/watt. So they tweaked ADL, and added more e-cores to try and catch Zen 4

Agree with all of the above, but again, Zen 4 merely being "better" in MT wasn't the extent of the hype. Now that we have real numbers to work with, I was hoping things would calm down enough to appreciate the situation we're left with.

Edit, and 100 watts more is not 10% and they will still lose from the leaks.

The difference in boost power limits is 23W according to leaks.

 

[CakeMonster]

If it was just this, and RL, for the next 12 months, I'd buy instantly because I prefer the AMD platform and want to wait with adopting big.Little for some more time (although I'm a proponent of the concept). But the strong rumors about the V-Cache chips arriving in much less than 12 months (and there being a 16c part this time), makes me very likely to wait that out. With a ~24 month time frame until the next AMD and Intel generations, it makes practical and mathematical sense to sit on the fence a bit longer.

 

[Exist50]

If it was just this, and RL, for the next 12 months, I'd buy instantly because I prefer the AMD platform and want to wait with adopting big.Little for some more time (although I'm a proponent of the concept). But the strong rumors about the V-Cache chips arriving in much less than 12 months (and there being a 16c part this time), makes me very likely to wait that out. With a ~24 month time frame until the next AMD and Intel generations, it makes practical and mathematical sense to sit on the fence a bit longer.

That's a good point. 2023 is looking to be pretty boring from a desktop perspective. Though alternatively, buying now could maximize your time on the leading edge, depending on what Zen4x3D products AMD's going to offer. Big question on whether we'll see a >8c one.

 

[szrpx]

Anyone know if idle draw has been measured for Zen 4? Is it improved over Zen 3?

Curious if they fixed the I/O die disabling all the power saving features when not run at stock.

 

[Markfw]

Anyone know if idle draw has been measured for Zen 4? Is it improved over Zen 3?

Curious if they fixed the I/O die disabling all the power saving features when not run at stock.

I will reply if I can get mine tomorrow.

 

[poke01]

Software based is no good. It needs to be in the bios. You start at the baseline which is the firmware aka. bios.

My 3D-Cache comment is based on Intel. They don't like to lose and they do not lose often or for long. Gaming performance is the most important area in consumer CPU's. The 7950x is basically a threadripper. That is the HEDT segment. Even those guys like to have the best in everything including gaming performance. 3D v-cache is proven technology.

I personally do not care much about temps. I do care about power consumption. One more thing to remember. Zen 4 is brand new and it will take AMD 2 or 3 months to iron out the bios. In the past, AMD has always listened to their customers. Whereas Intel says, who cares or we will address it in the next CPU iteration and/or motherboard.

Same here I don't give a fudge about temps but power consumption is a major factor me.

Laptops CPUs have been in the 95+ degrees for so long. It does not matter as long as there's no throttling. Right now efficiency will be king in the future it WILL dictate people's choice.

 

[poke01]

I need more of this kind of charts:

@BorisTheBlade82 do you plan to run PES on a Zen 4 chip anytime soon?

What I got from that chart is that the 12700K is the best choice for most people.

 

[poke01]

Zen 4 is brand new and it will take AMD 2 or 3 months to iron out the bios. In the past, AMD has always listened to their customers. Whereas Intel says, who cares or we will address it in the next CPU iteration and/or motherboard.

What a load of horse poop. AMD "always listens". Yeah no...

They do better than Intel because they weren't the market leader.

 

[Hulk]

Just read the Zen 4 review. Main point running through my mind while reading was, "Intel needs to be very careful with Raptor Lake pricing."

 

[Markfw]

What I got from that chart is that the 12700K is the best choice for most people.

where on earth do you get that ? It says power left is best., thats the 7950x !!!

 

[Markfw]

What a load of horse poop. AMD "always listens". Yeah no...

They do better than Intel because they weren't the market leader.

They have been the market leader for 4 -5 years... Again, where do you get this crap ?

 

[poke01]

where on earth do you get that ? It says power left is best., thats the 7950x !!!

I said most people. The 7950X is expensive compared to the 12700K. Your avg PC buyer buys the i7 or i5. But in this case the i7 has a healthy lead to the i5. I know the 7950X is the best. Not everyone can afford the best.

 

[poke01]

They have been the market leader for 4 -5 years... Again, where do you get this crap ?

I meant during the Sandy Bridge-Haswell days.

 

[Markfw]

I said most people. The 7950X is expensive compared to the 12700K. Your avg PC buyer buys the i7 or i5. But in this case the i7 has a healthy lead to the i5. I know the 7950X is the best. Not everyone can afford the best.

On that chart there are many choices better for the "average" person. The 5950x is less than $500 and the 7600x is $300 and both are better than the 12700k.

And you are talking about Sandybridge ??? Join the current decade dude.

 

[tamz_msc]

I right now have a 5800X and a GTX 1080 Ti. The only games I play on my PC currently are X-Plane 11, FS2020, and in the future X-Plane 12. I could not find any info on how the 7700X performs in these 2 games but based on what I saw so far in the benchmarks on gaming earlier today I think I will wait for 7800X3D or whatever it's going to be called. I rather upgrade to a faster GPU for now, maybe a 3080 Ti or 3090 Ti.

The French outlet Le Comptoir du Hardware tested X-Plane 11.

99 percentile:



Average:

Test • AMD Ryzen 9 7950X, 7900X, Ryzen 7 7700X & Ryzen 5 7600X : Zen 4, AM5, X670E, B650E & DDR5

Les Ryzen 9 7950X & Ryzen 7 7700X ainsi que leur chipset compagnon X670E passent à la moulinette : comparaison avec les précédentes générations de processeurs sur des jeux, encodage, traitement d'image et vidéo, rendu 3D, compression, encryptage, compilation et divers benchmarks synthétiques et...

www.comptoir-hardware.com

So Intel has the edge in X-Plane 11 in percentile frame rates at least for the 12900K. Keep in mind that these tests were done with the official supported memory frequency on both platforms - 4800 MT/s for Alder Lake and 5200 MT/s for Zen 4.