Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[Tuna-Fish]

If they required ECC and 32GB DIMMs, the 4800 might have literally been the best ram available. There are listings for 32GB fast ECC dimms around here, but the delivery dates are unconfirmed.

Since there aren't really DDR5 servers yet, and the Intel platforms that are out in large volume don't support it, ECC DDR5 market is only just starting.

 

[nicalandia]

96C/192T vs 96C/192T

AMD EPYC 9654P vs AMD Eng Sample: 100-000000997-01

AMD Corporation RUBY vs ASUSTeK COMPUTER INC. RS500A-E12-RS12U - Geekbench

 

[Asterox]

Some more useful "gaming comparison" with the old Vega 3 iGPU.

4K gaming,..........................you can if you're drunk.

 

[nicalandia]

4K gaming,..........................you can if you're drunk.

That can be easily arranged...!

 

[Markfw]

If official spec is 5200 non ECC then it looks right that ECC will mandate one bin lower frequency, dunno if 5200 is also supported by the 7950X when it s with ECC.

Anyway it shouldnt have a big influence in things like Linpack, possibly in large compilations.

The only one with ECC at all is the 5995wx. The other two are non-ECC. So the memory

If they required ECC and 32GB DIMMs, the 4800 might have literally been the best ram available. There are listings for 32GB fast ECC dimms around here, but the delivery dates are unconfirmed.

Since there aren't really DDR5 servers yet, and the Intel platforms that are out in large volume don't support it, ECC DDR5 market is only just starting.

Did you read ??? Only the 5995WX are ECC, the 5950x and 7950x are NON -ECC

 

[itsmydamnation]

Did you read ??? Only the 5995WX are ECC, the 5950x and 7950x are NON -ECC

my understanding is that is wrong, but the key point is you need an AM4 MB that supports ECC, this was 100% the case with Zen2.

CPU - Hunting for X570 or B550 board that fully supports ECC!

I’m hoping to get my 2x32GB KSM32ED8/32ME running with my 5950X. Currently it’s running in a B550I Aorus Pro AX. This was always supposed to be a temporary setup. The main reason to change the board is that I would like to be able to experiment with ECC memory overclocking. On this B550I it only...

smallformfactor.net

I have successfully used ECC on a number of X570/B550 motherboards:

• Asus X570 Prime Pro/CSM (ATX)
• Asus TUF Gaming B550M-Plus (MATX)
• Asrock B550M Steel Legend (MATX)
• Gigabyte X570 Aorus Master (ATX)
• Gigabyte B550I Aorus Pro AX (ITX)

In all of the above, the specs mention ECC.

 

[Markfw]

my understanding is that is wrong, but the key point is you need an AM4 MB that supports ECC, this was 100% the case with Zen2.

CPU - Hunting for X570 or B550 board that fully supports ECC!

I’m hoping to get my 2x32GB KSM32ED8/32ME running with my 5950X. Currently it’s running in a B550I Aorus Pro AX. This was always supposed to be a temporary setup. The main reason to change the board is that I would like to be able to experiment with ECC memory overclocking. On this B550I it only...

smallformfactor.net

The site has NON-ECC DDR4 3200 for the 5950x in the setup specs. Then 4800 NON-ECC DDR5 in the 7950x specs, then 3200 ECC for the 5995wx in the specs.

THIS IS IN THE LINK< WHAT IS WRONG ???? I am saying they are comparing apples and oranges, and the comparison is crap.

 

[Harry_Wild]

After Thanksgiving, I changed my priorities from buying the 7050X first, to buying a X670E motherboard 1st! Some of theses motherboards are in the $500-$700 range now! The motherboard OEMs are mad or AMD is charging to much for the 670E chipset! But if I can get 20% off, then the cycle of domino effect buying will start for me!

 

[inf64]

After Thanksgiving, I changed my priorities from buying the 7050X first, to buying a X670E motherboard 1st! Some of theses motherboards are in the $500-$700 range now! The motherboard OEMs are mad or AMD is charging to much for the 670E chipset! But if I can get 20% off, then the cycle of domino effect buying will start for me!

Just a silly question: I noticed you keep typing 7050X instead of 7950X. Is your keyboard working properly?

I think you cannot go wrong with 7950X+X670E build, it's basically top of the line performance in everything (even after 13th gen launches). Plus it's more future proof, you will be able to slide in Zen 6 CPU almost 100%, which is a major plus.

 

[aigomorla]

I think you cannot go wrong with 7950X+X670E build

Cou *PCI-E Lanes* gh....
I think a 700 dollar cpu really should have at least 48 PCI-E Lanes on the Chip itself.
What is the point in having that many cores without the lanes to support it?
Do you really like being capped at 1 gpu and 1 Aux Card and 2 nVME's? (thats not a workstation setup, its a Gaming PC config)
That makes me really depressed that you can't get at least 64 PCI-E Lanes until you go over to a dying platform called HEDT, or you decide to spend mega dollars in full enterprise gear, which doesn't really game well compared to a HEDT.

This is why im sort of really mixed about what is the point in the 7950x when it doesn't have lanes for a workstation, and its only has enough lanes for a gaming PC, and no game i can think of will run better on 16 cores then it would on 8 or 12 even.

 

[biostud]

Cou *PCI-E Lanes* gh....
I think a 700 dollar cpu really should have at least 48 PCI-E Lanes on the Chip itself.
What is the point in having that many cores without the lanes to support it?
Do you really like being capped at 1 gpu and 1 Aux Card and 2 nVME's? (thats not a workstation setup, its a Gaming PC config)
That makes me really depressed that you can't get at least 64 PCI-E Lanes until you go over to a dying platform called HEDT, or you decide to spend mega dollars in full enterprise gear, which doesn't really game well compared to a HEDT.

This is why im sort of really mixed about what is the point in the 7950x when it doesn't have lanes for a workstation, and its only has enough lanes for a gaming PC, and no game i can think of will run better on 16 cores then it would on 8 or 12 even.

If they want to sell more zen4 chips, they can always revive the regular Threadripper platform

 

[Abwx]

The site has NON-ECC DDR4 3200 for the 5950x in the setup specs. Then 4800 NON-ECC DDR5 in the 7950x specs, then 3200 ECC for the 5995wx in the specs.

THIS IS IN THE LINK< WHAT IS WRONG ???? I am saying they are comparing apples and oranges, and the comparison is crap.

There s indeed something weird in their settings, because the 7950X support 5200 ECC after all...

AMD X670E, X670, B650E, B650 und A620 im Vergleich

Wer auf AMDs AM5-Plattform mit Ryzen 7000 umrüsten will, hat die Qual der Wahl zwischen fünf Mainboard-Chipsätzen. Doch welcher leistet was?

www.computerbase.de

 

[biostud]

Cou *PCI-E Lanes* gh....
I think a 700 dollar cpu really should have at least 48 PCI-E Lanes on the Chip itself.
What is the point in having that many cores without the lanes to support it?
Do you really like being capped at 1 gpu and 1 Aux Card and 2 nVME's? (thats not a workstation setup, its a Gaming PC config)
That makes me really depressed that you can't get at least 64 PCI-E Lanes until you go over to a dying platform called HEDT, or you decide to spend mega dollars in full enterprise gear, which doesn't really game well compared to a HEDT.

This is why im sort of really mixed about what is the point in the 7950x when it doesn't have lanes for a workstation, and its only has enough lanes for a gaming PC, and no game i can think of will run better on 16 cores then it would on 8 or 12 even.

I guess it is enough for content creation and some work applications up to a certain amount of workload.

I'm not a user who have had need for a workstation, but what would you normally do with all the pcie lanes?

 

[eek2121]

Cou *PCI-E Lanes* gh....
I think a 700 dollar cpu really should have at least 48 PCI-E Lanes on the Chip itself.
What is the point in having that many cores without the lanes to support it?
Do you really like being capped at 1 gpu and 1 Aux Card and 2 nVME's? (thats not a workstation setup, its a Gaming PC config)
That makes me really depressed that you can't get at least 64 PCI-E Lanes until you go over to a dying platform called HEDT, or you decide to spend mega dollars in full enterprise gear, which doesn't really game well compared to a HEDT.

This is why im sort of really mixed about what is the point in the 7950x when it doesn't have lanes for a workstation, and its only has enough lanes for a gaming PC, and no game i can think of will run better on 16 cores then it would on 8 or 12 even.

Hard disagree there. Very few people need PCIE lanes, even in the productivity space. I do software development, a bit of hardware design, and content creation (some 3D and more video content) and I only need a single PCIE slot for the GPU (I game with what little downtime I have). My machine has 2 NVME drives and is connected to a NAS.

Expansion cards are dying a slow death. Only certain very specific workloads need tons of IO. If AMD could give me 24-64 cores and quad channel memory for a reasonable price I would be happy.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I think a 700 dollar cpu really should have at least 48 PCI-E Lanes on the Chip itself.

AMD has proven that they can make a lot more money by not doing anything like that. Which is why we have the 5995WX and the 7950X as they are today.

 

[dnavas]

I'm not a user who have had need for a workstation, but what would you normally do with all the pcie lanes?

Capture card, and a faster networking card are pretty obvious adds (I'm using sfp28, but I'd like to move to qsfp28 at some point).
You can do most capture via USB, but if I wanted to cobble together a frankenstein's monster of individual boxes, I'd probably use one of these modern mesh cases that didn't take drives as well :|
Probably audio externally just from a noise perspective.
Possibly a quad NVME as well, but I'm personally happy with a NAS, NVME on that machine, and a really fast interconnect, but setups can vary.

 

[biostud]

Capture card, and a faster networking card are pretty obvious adds (I'm using sfp28, but I'd like to move to qsfp28 at some point).
You can do most capture via USB, but if I wanted to cobble together a frankenstein's monster of individual boxes, I'd probably use one of these modern mesh cases that didn't take drives as well :|
Probably audio externally just from a noise perspective.
Possibly a quad NVME as well, but I'm personally happy with a NAS, NVME on that machine, and a really fast interconnect, but setups can vary.

Unless you have a graphics card with a 4 slot, you should be able to both have a capture card and a faster network card, as they don't all have to be PCIE5 lanes?
There is EATX boards that supports up to 6 nvme drives.

 

[dnavas]

Unless you have a graphics card with a 4 slot, you should be able to both have a capture card and a faster network card, as they don't all have to be PCIE5 lanes?
There is EATX boards that supports up to 6 nvme drives.

Yeah, I think the capture card I have is x1. The network card is x8, but I'm going to want the option to go to qsfp28 in the next couple of years. I've only looked at a smattering of AM5 motherboards, but what I've seen are either 2 slots, or 3 with the extra pair at pcie3. Limited, but depressing canvas.... pcie5 is future insurance for cxl, I imagine I don't even really need it for the video card (I don't game ... at all). I expect some interesting hardware leveraging cxl, but not clear whether any of them will be immediately useful to me.

 

[Timorous]

By the Way, I just got banned from Techpowerup Forums, because of the 5800X vs 12900k 4090 GPU Benchmarks.

View attachment 69390

I don't blame him, you were being a muppet.

 

[biostud]

Yeah, I think the capture card I have is x1. The network card is x8, but I'm going to want the option to go to qsfp28 in the next couple of years. I've only looked at a smattering of AM5 motherboards, but what I've seen are either 2 slots, or 3 with the extra pair at pcie3. Limited, but depressing canvas.... pcie5 is future insurance for cxl, I imagine I don't even really need it for the video card (I don't game ... at all). I expect some interesting hardware leveraging cxl, but not clear whether any of them will be immediately useful to me.

Maybe they will release some more "pro" oriented boards down the line.

 

[Kaluan]

I don't blame him, you were being a muppet.

Except he's kinda right.

Last CPU tested by TPU/Wizzard before Ryzen 7000 came out:

Ryzen 7000 review day results:

It's like they're trying super hard every time AMD releases sonething to still paint Intel on top, even if by just 0,1%

For crying out loud, look back at their Ryzen 5000 launch day reviews, they have crap like i7 10700 on top (and 3%+ over the likes of 5800X or 5900X) LMAO


Also, they never show percentile lows, which ultimately make their "gaming" reviews useless either way, bias or not.

Edit: Just noticed how they pulled out 12900KS "results" just so they can have something to eek a statistical error win over the 5800X3D, then when they don't need it anymore, just 12900K will do, they remove it from the chart. Jeez that's almost userbenchmark levels of clownery.

 

[Thunder 57]

Except he's kinda right.

Last CPU tested by TPU/Wizzard before Ryzen 7000 came out:
View attachment 69456
Ryzen 7000 review day results:
View attachment 69457
It's like they're trying super hard every time AMD releases sonething to still paint Intel on top, even if by just 0,1%

For crying out loud, look back at their Ryzen 5000 launch day reviews, they have crap like i7 10700 on top (and 3%+ over the likes of 5800X or 5900X) LMAO


Also, they never show percentile lows, which ultimately make their "gaming" reviews useless either way, bias or not.

Edit: Just noticed how they pulled out 12900KS "results" just so they can have something to eek a statistical error win over the 5800X3D, then when they don't need it anymore, just 12900K will do, they remove it from the chart. Jeez that's almost userbenchmark levels of clownery.

Wow, didn't realize it was that bad. That's why more reputable sites use the same set of benchmarks for a certain time frame and don't just pick and choose what puts their preferred brand on top. Guess they've been exposed.

 

[Timorous]

Except he's kinda right.

Last CPU tested by TPU/Wizzard before Ryzen 7000 came out:
View attachment 69456
Ryzen 7000 review day results:
View attachment 69457
It's like they're trying super hard every time AMD releases sonething to still paint Intel on top, even if by just 0,1%

For crying out loud, look back at their Ryzen 5000 launch day reviews, they have crap like i7 10700 on top (and 3%+ over the likes of 5800X or 5900X) LMAO


Also, they never show percentile lows, which ultimately make their "gaming" reviews useless either way, bias or not.

Edit: Just noticed how they pulled out 12900KS "results" just so they can have something to eek a statistical error win over the 5800X3D, then when they don't need it anymore, just 12900K will do, they remove it from the chart. Jeez that's almost userbenchmark levels of clownery.

There is a vast difference between saying 'I think your test rig and your methodology needs a bit of tweaking' which others in that thread were saying as well (Using 5800X with 4000 C20 ram rather than something like 3200C14 / 3600C14 which is far more affordable as well as better performing) and calling him a completely biased hack (which I don't think he is, he just uses a relatively poor game suite in the CPU tests but this is where the 3D centre meta review comes in handy for smoothing out the outliers).

 

[MadRat]

All benchmarks will be biased since all metrics must come from some programming specific perspective. All they really need is an application that everyone uses - and it does better - to claim victory. Instead of pulling out the same benchmarks they should be running stock demos of the top 10 applications in a spectrum of unrelated fields. No CPU could corner every benchmark, and it would expose strengths and weaknesses in a design.

Zen 4 should be centered around benchmarks that rely on DDR5 and multiple cores. It has its weaknesses, but it also has a lot of strengths to explore.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Glibc Picks Up More AVX-512 Optimizations - ~30% Less Cycles For Some String Functions - Phoronix

Zen 4 will extend its lead in Linux even more when more applications are compiled with the updated glibc library.