speed of gravity

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hellokeith

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Biftheunderstudy
Gravitational waves are different than plain ol' gravitation.

Correct.

If you attach a buoy to a boat with a tight rope, the buoy will make waves in the water when the boat accelerates and/or changes direction. In the same sense, the sun pulling the earth will cause gravitational waves in space-time as it accelerates. That those waves may permeate at the speed of light says nothing of the speed at which the actual gravitation acts/reacts, just as the speed of the waves in the water say nothing of the speed of the rope's pulling force.

You see the sun in its time-delayed position in the sky (~8 min). The photons which are striking the earth and your eyes are pushing against you ever so slightly. The direction of that force is opposite to a straight line back to where the sun was 8 minutes ago, not where it actually is right now. Going back to the buoy analogy, the speed of the rope force is not infinite.. just significantly faster than the secondary water waves.

Think about this logically, and ask yourself if it makes sense: Does the earth revolve around a sun that's never actually there? The answer is no, it doesn't make logical sense. However, if the speed of gravitational force is significantly faster than light (but not necessarily instantaneous), then it becomes easier to understand how the earth and all the other planets much much further away revolve around a sun in it's true location, not a light-time-delayed location.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Originally posted by: hellokeith
Correct.

If you attach a buoy to a boat with a tight rope, the buoy will make waves in the water when the boat accelerates and/or changes direction. In the same sense, the sun pulling the earth will cause gravitational waves in space-time as it accelerates. That those waves may permeate at the speed of light says nothing of the speed at which the actual gravitation acts/reacts, just as the speed of the waves in the water say nothing of the speed of the rope's pulling force.

You see the sun in its time-delayed position in the sky (~8 min). The photons which are striking the earth and your eyes are pushing against you ever so slightly. The direction of that force is opposite to a straight line back to where the sun was 8 minutes ago, not where it actually is right now. Going back to the buoy analogy, the speed of the rope force is not infinite.. just significantly faster than the secondary water waves.

Think about this logically, and ask yourself if it makes sense: Does the earth revolve around a sun that's never actually there? The answer is no, it doesn't make logical sense. However, if the speed of gravitational force is significantly faster than light (but not necessarily instantaneous), then it becomes easier to understand how the earth and all the other planets much much further away revolve around a sun in it's true location, not a light-time-delayed location.
Unfortunately, you're arguing against one of the fundamental tenets of general relativity, one that has been demonstrated experimentally many, many times. The problem is that your frame of thought on the subject seems to think that the sun is zooming around at a velocity that is not negligible relative to the speed of light, which is incorrect. Even if it were correct, what you're saying doesn't necessarily follow. :shrug;
 

hellokeith

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Unfortunately, you're arguing against one of the fundamental tenets of general relativity, one that has been demonstrated experimentally many, many times.

The speed of gravity has not been demonstrated experimentally, and there is at least one peer-reviewed paper that refutes all of the very indirect observations made of the binary pulsar pair.
 

Biftheunderstudy

Senior member
Aug 15, 2006
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True we haven't tested the speed of gravity, but thats because it can't really be turned on or off. Some of the big gravity wave detectors would be able determine the speed of the waves which would put an end to this problem...as soon as they can actually detect some.

Another interesting way to determine this would be to reproduce the gravitomagnetic london moment in a niobium superconductor and measure the time delta. This experiment hasn't been verified yet though so the results wouldn't likely be validated until the experiment itself was verified..

As far as I know the only variances in the speed of gravity waves and thus gravity itself from the pulsar measurement are from the error in the data. All this means is that there is an upper and lower bound on the speed and its something less than a percent of the speed of light difference. To put it another way the speed of gravity is c +/- 1% from the pulsar measurements.

If gravity were instantaneous or nearly so I don't think you could have frame dragging which gravity probe B should find pretty soon.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Originally posted by: hellokeith
The speed of gravity has not been demonstrated experimentally, and there is at least one peer-reviewed paper that refutes all of the very indirect observations made of the binary pulsar pair.
True that the speed of gravity hasn't been measured directly, but it's pretty clear that models assuming that it propagates at the speed of light exactly fits the data as far as all of the planets in our solar system go.
 

hellokeith

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Biftheunderstudy
True we haven't tested the speed of gravity, but thats because it can't really be turned on or off. Some of the big gravity wave detectors would be able determine the speed of the waves which would put an end to this problem...as soon as they can actually detect some.

Again, gravity and gravity waves (and gravitational radiation, if any of these actually exist) are different things. Measuring the sonic boom of a jet may or may not tell you the speed of the jet.

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
it's pretty clear that models assuming that it propagates at the speed of light exactly fits the data as far as all of the planets in our solar system go.

Care to demonstrate one? So far, I can find only forumlae which assume gravity is instantaneous, and the most accurate formula is a Newtonian one (go figure).
 

Nathelion

Senior member
Jan 30, 2006
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The newtonian formula is not the most accurate. But it is accurate enough.

Your sonic boom example doesn't make sense... a proper analogy would be to interpret the gravity wave as the sonic boom and sound in general as gravity. Does the sonic boom propagate at the speed of sound in the medium? Yes. Because it is sound. Similarly, a gravity wave would, at least within the context of describing it as a wave (which you seem to accept), propagate at the speed of gravity. To actually generate a "gravity boom" analogous to the sonic boom of the jet, one would have to accelerate a body past the speed of gravity propagation.
 

wordsworm

Member
Jan 28, 2006
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As I tried to explain before, experiments have confirmed that gravity propagates at the speed of light. This is why relativity is a superior theory to Newton's theory of universal gravitation - by accounting for the finite propagation time of gravity, it perfectly models the motion of the planets, whereas the Newtonian formulation has some small errors.

Would you care to provide a link? Last time I talked to a physics prof, there had yet to be an experiment to prove this. One problem with looking at Newtonian physics is that we're using light to measure things by, and light is deceptive.

I thought for a long time about what Einstein said concerning the issue, and after close to 20 years of considering it, I have come to the conclusion that it is false. Gravitons, I believe, travel at an instantaneous speed. There are no benchmarks to measure the graviton. As far as science is concerned, it's never been tested. At least, I haven't found one.

This is how I imagined Einstein's talk about going at the speed of light. First, I created 3 reference points along a line labeled A, B, C, and gave to each a clock that kept perfect time. The distance between A and B is 100 light years, and B and C 100 light years. Then I had fun with point B. Point B travels towards point A at the speed of light. Two perspectives will be created. Point A will see point B for 100 years, ticking away 100 years behind, when suddenly, after 100 years of traveling at the speed of light, the clock jumps to a synchronous time. Perspective C, after 100 years, the clock on Perspective B (as it travels towards perspective A) moving at 1/2 the normal speed. This is, of course, after 100 years of watching it, and this would continue for 100 years. Time doesn't bend, it's just our perception of it as is delayed by light.

The problem, I figure, with modern physics, is that it demands too much from light. It is used to formulate the rules of the universe when it is deeply flawed. As Plato put it, "Don't believe everything you see." (paraphrased, obviously)

Light is no different from sound. If you were on a ship traveling at the speed of light and you shone a light ahead of you, no one would see it until you'd gone clean past them. Then, at best, there'd be this infinitesimal brief burst of light followed by darkness. If the light was omni directional, the person watching the light would see not just light in front of him/her, but also light behind him her. Let me put it this way, if you did this for 1 light year, you'd see the light after it passed you for 1 year, and you'd see the light as the light emitter continued past you. Of course, this is forgetting the idea that the red shift would likely render any light invisible.

I liken the whole misunderstanding to that of a world of blind scientists trying to say that nothing could move faster than the speed of sound (something that was said even when we could see) simply because the sound of a jet never changes speed, regardless of how fast it travels. If two people with synchronized clocks were to measure speeds of the sound at different locations, they might talk about how strange it was that there was a sound heard before there should have been. That is to say, if there's a jet going at mach 2, and the sound reaches someone in half the speed expected, then they'd have to make up some kind of confusing science, inventing such things as worm holes and other bizarre tales created to try to explain the inconsistency.

Gravity travels at an instantaneous speed. This much has become clear to me since about 2 years ago. I began pondering how strange it would be that the earth in its orbital pattern would be following not where the sun is, but where the sun was 8 minutes ago. I then further speculated that this 8 minutes would see a variable depending on where it was in orbit. As you know, the sun itself is in orbit and is moving at a tremendous speed. If it was, for the sake of argument, traveling at 1/2 the speed of light, then in those 8 minutes the difference of where the sun would attract the earth would in fact be 4 light minutes when at the furthest point in the sun's path, but would in fact be physically closer to the actual sun when ahead of the sun in its path around the galaxy, causing in fact a fluctuation, or harmonic, which, coincidentally, would be physically impossible if the sun was in fact moving at 1/2 the speed of light. Now, you might suggest, and correctly so, that the sun is at best estimated to be traveling through the universe, with everything tallied to the highest estimate I've found, at only 1/300 the speed of light. Certainly, this is true. However, if you consider that some particles have orbits as well, and they also are attracted to a center, and if they themselves *do* travel at 1/2 the speed of light, then the orbiter and the orbited could not help but collide.

My conclusion is that light is simply the fastest measurement we have in looking at the universe. Since we use it to determine physical truths from the universe, and we know that it is flawed (after all, we see the sun as it was 8 minutes ago, not as it is), it seems silly to create absolute truth, such as that as the speed of light being the maximum, based on it. There is no reason to believe it if simple common sense is applied to it. Logic dictates the universe, not our flawed reasoning.

Check this out: It points to experiments that prove that the minimal speed of gravity must be 2x that of light. Of course, I believe it to be instantaneous, and therefore fallacious. Nonetheless it shows that there is far more doubt over this issue than what you purport it to be. Furthermore, it goes a long way towards supporting what op said.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: hellokeith
Care to demonstrate one? So far, I can find only forumlae which assume gravity is instantaneous, and the most accurate formula is a Newtonian one (go figure).
Like I said, read A Brief History of Time. It's written by Stephen Hawking, perhaps the most well-respected physicist of our time. He's the one that told me these things (in his book). I can pull some quotes out if you'd like, but I'm not sure how much sense they'll make out of context. I seem to recall an experiment in 1914 or so where the exact orbit of Mercury was monitored. Its orbit fluctuates more than that of the other planets because of its proximity to the sun, and Newton's method failed to capture these fluctuations, while general relativity predicted them perfectly.
 

Biftheunderstudy

Senior member
Aug 15, 2006
375
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Just one point to make about that link. Equation (4) he states that there is the extra term from GR when V=c so that it does not reduce to the Newtonian result in the low velocity weak field limit. Garbage. He clearly states in the preceding paragraphs that the weak field phi->0 and low velocity v->0 that you retain the Newtonian result..he fails to let v->0 in equation (4) where he makes his conclusion. If you do that then that term which is multiplied by v, you get the Newtonian result.

I never finished reading the rest.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: hellokeith
Care to demonstrate one? So far, I can find only forumlae which assume gravity is instantaneous, and the most accurate formula is a Newtonian one (go figure).
Like I said, read A Brief History of Time. It's written by Stephen Hawking, perhaps the most well-respected physicist of our time. He's the one that told me these things (in his book). I can pull some quotes out if you'd like, but I'm not sure how much sense they'll make out of context. I seem to recall an experiment in 1914 or so where the exact orbit of Mercury was monitored. Its orbit fluctuates more than that of the other planets because of its proximity to the sun, and Newton's method failed to capture these fluctuations, while general relativity predicted them perfectly.

Aberrations is the term I believe. Newtonian instant gravity propagation theory does not account for such things while GR does.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
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Originally posted by: wordsworm
My conclusion is that light is simply the fastest measurement we have in looking at the universe. Since we use it to determine physical truths from the universe, and we know that it is flawed (after all, we see the sun as it was 8 minutes ago, not as it is), it seems silly to create absolute truth, such as that as the speed of light being the maximum, based on it. There is no reason to believe it if simple common sense is applied to it. Logic dictates the universe, not our flawed reasoning.

I'm not going to take the time go through all of this, especially your contention of the equality between light and sound waves, but I will briefly comment on this. There is plenty of reason to believe that light in a vacuum is the speed limit. The multitude of effects that we observe that can only explained by this have made relativity the backbone of physics for a hundred years. And the fact that it is the fastest metric possible does not prevent us from observing and interpreting relativistic phenomenon. The transformation between reference frames was discovered prior to Einstein's paper by Lorentz. In some ways, the effects of relativity are a boon to us because they relate additional information. The acceleration of charge causes radiation but relativity causes interesting effects to this radiation. The power density of the radiation from the accelerating charge is directionally dependent, and it is also dependent upon the relationship between the acceleration and velocity vectors. In a nonrelativistic particle, the radiation pattern is like that of (sin(\theta))^2, where theta is the angle between the velocity and observer. Upon relativistic speeds, the radiation pattern distorts. The radiation becomes a single beam projected primarily along the velocity vector. But, if the acceleration and velocity vectors are parallel, a null appears along the velocity vector and the beam pattern splits in two. So when observing radiation, we can know the velocity and acceleration directions by noticing the radiation pattern of a relativistic particle. Special and General Relativity gives us the basic tool sets by which we can account for the finite propagation of information.
 

RideFree

Diamond Member
Jul 25, 2001
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There is some current speculation that there may be an error of epistemological proportions in E = mc2, given that E might be an irrational number.

Edited for one of my favorite definitions of the mathematical singularity aka/black hole:
Jude 13 "...wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."
(KJV)
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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To try to shed some additional light on this, I have decided I'll quote a bit from Dr. Hawking, who I think most of us can agree is considered an expert in the field. I'm sure the good mod Dr.Pizza will let me know if I'm breaking some sort of copyright rules here and I'll take it down if necessary.
If one neglects gravitational effects, as Einstein and Poincare did in 1905, one has what is called the special theory of relativity. For every event in space-time we may construct a light cone (the set of all possible paths of light in space-time emitted at that event), and since the speed of light is the same at every event and in every direction, all the light cones will be identical and will all point in the same direction. The theory also tells us that nothing can travel faster than light. This means that the path of any object through space and time must be represented by a line that lies within the light cone at each event on it (Fig. 2.7). The special theory of relativity was very successful in explaining that the speed of light appears teh same to all observers (as shown by the Michelson-Morley experiment) and in describing what happens when things move at speeds close to the speed of light. However, it was inconsistent with hte Newtonian theory of gravity, which said that objects attracted each other with a force that depended on the distance between them. This meant that if one moved one of hte objects, the force on the other one would change instantaneously. Or in other words, gravitational effects should travel wtih infinite velocity, instead of at or below the speed of light, as the special theory of relativity required. Einstein made a number of unsuccessful attempts between 1908 and 1914 to find a theory of gravity that was consistent with special relativity. Finally, in 1915, he proposed what we now call the general theory of relativity.

--Stephen Hawking, "A Brief History of Time," 1998, pp. 28-30.
Sorry for any typos, but it's pretty late. In any case, it's pretty clear from this excerpt that relativity requires that the propagation of gravity is less than or equal to the speed of light. I loaned out my book on relativity by Einstein where he explains why, but I'll see if I can track it down.
 

wordsworm

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Jan 28, 2006
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especially your contention of the equality between light and sound waves,
I always love it when someone takes something out of context. In any case, I'm referring to the perception of time. The sound of a ticking clock, for example, can tell us about the passing of time. Then there is the visual representation of the clock ticking. Whether or not it's sound or light, both convey the passage of time, and both are skewed by movement. That is, if you move at 1/2 the speed of sound towards that clock, it will appear to tick twice as fast. If you move towards it twice the speed of light, then you'll see it ticking twice as fast. Now, as I've said before, I'm behind Newton on this one: we may see the sun as it was 8 minutes ago, but we're attracted to where the sun is. This is the difference between perception of time, and time itself, reality and the perception of reality. Don't believe everything you see.
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
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Originally posted by: wordsworm
especially your contention of the equality between light and sound waves,
I always love it when someone takes something out of context. In any case, I'm referring to the perception of time. The sound of a ticking clock, for example, can tell us about the passing of time. Then there is the visual representation of the clock ticking. Whether or not it's sound or light, both convey the passage of time, and both are skewed by movement. That is, if you move at 1/2 the speed of sound towards that clock, it will appear to tick twice as fast. If you move towards it twice the speed of light, then you'll see it ticking twice as fast. Now, as I've said before, I'm behind Newton on this one: we may see the sun as it was 8 minutes ago, but we're attracted to where the sun is. This is the difference between perception of time, and time itself, reality and the perception of reality. Don't believe everything you see.

Sound and light waves will not display the same effects. If you approach a ticking clock at a speed comparable to the speed of sound, say half, then you will hear the ticks at 50% faster rate than before. However, the perception of time has not changed at all, if you carried a clock with you that you originally synched up at a distance from the clock, and then approached the clock at Mach 0.5, then the clocks will still be synched up. But if you move towards it at half the speed of light, time will distort and you will see a shift in time by 15%. The clocks will no longer synch up after you approach the reference. One of the salient points of relativity is the invalidation of Galilean transformations. Sound follows Galilean transformations because they are longitudinal pressure waves. Sound waves do not have a analog to the Lorentz transformations, even when you move through a medium at a speed comparable to that of sound. Light follows the Lorentz transformations. Your assumptions that you use between the sound waves and light waves in the perception of time are false and would be the common school of thought prior to relativity. What I don't understand is how you do not seem to have a problem accepting retarded potentials in terms of electrodynamics and electromagnetics but reject the idea for gravity.

I'm not familiar enough with physics research to comment on Van Flandern, but it would be interesting to see the comments and criticisms on his paper. But the second article again only talks about the controversy of the Jupiter experiments which is not focused on whether or not the speed of gravity is the speed of light, but whether or not the experiment was successful in measuring the speed of gravity.
 

RideFree

Diamond Member
Jul 25, 2001
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How can black holes have gravity when nothing can get out because escape speed is greater than the speed of light?
 

wordsworm

Member
Jan 28, 2006
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How can black holes have gravity when nothing can get out because escape speed is greater than the speed of light?

That one is easy dude. Gravity moves at an infinite speed - it's instantaneous. infinity - 300,000 km/second = infinity.
 

wordsworm

Member
Jan 28, 2006
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Sound and light waves will not display the same effects. If you approach a ticking clock at a speed comparable to the speed of sound, say half, then you will hear the ticks at 50% faster rate than before. However, the perception of time has not changed at all, if you carried a clock with you that you originally synched up at a distance from the clock, and then approached the clock at Mach 0.5, then the clocks will still be synched up. But if you move towards it at half the speed of light, time will distort and you will see a shift in time by 15%.

Now you're quoting Einstein's theory, which is a convoluted, sci-fi loving idea. Time doesn't distort. Now, I am not talking about electrodynamics or electromagnetic or even Electrolux. I was just talking about gravity. Anyways, for all that fanciful thinking in the realm of sci fi, truth is eventually going to be proved differently, and all the sci fi that's been going around the idea of time distortion is going to seem pretty silly. If I set up 3 buoys along a 300 ly path, marked A, B, and C, all of which are equidistant from each other, and I take a space ship with a synced with all three, moving in between them isn't going to distort time for the guys on the ship unless their clock has a problem.

I think the confusion Einstein had was that he figured that since there is a time distortion of 100 years and that time appeared slower as objects moved away from you and time appeared faster as they approached, he made the logical leap of thinking that time on the ship must be distorted too. Unfortunately for his idea, it's not time itself that's distorted, it's just the perception of time as we see it ahead and behind us. He thought time would freeze if you were traveling at the speed of light. Indeed, if you glanced at a clock you'd left behind, you'd see that the clock had magically frozen. Looking ahead, by contrast, would show the clock moving at 2x the same speed. By the time you get up to point B, for the men in the ship 100 years will have gone by. Looking at point A, time will seem to have stood still. Looking at point C, 100 years will have looked like 200 years had gone by.

It's very simple logic, but it isn't as fun as thinking about time distortion. The appearance of time distorts. This is actually pretty important to science on practical levels, as everyone knows.
 

hellokeith

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2004
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I decided to ask for some expert advice/opinion:

Dear Keith,

There are many subtleties in discussing the speed of gravity, and I'm not the expert in those.

The orbits of spacecraft and planets are not very sensitive to the speed of gravity.

From Einstein's theory of general relativity, the gravity field of the solar system results in a curved space-time, described by a (so-called) metric that states how the local space is curved by the masses of the sun and planets. In the creation of the metric, gravity is assumed to propagate at the speed of light. This metric then acts locally.

The metric slowly changes as the Sun and planets move (relative to the center of mass of the solar system). Since v/c is small, the changes in the gravity field are slow compared with the assumed speed of propagation and so we can't really prove or disprove that the speed of gravity is the speed of light or not, though we do know that the speed is much faster than the speed of the planets.

There have been some experiments in the past several years claiming to measure the speed of gravity. These are very controversial, and most people think they do not in fact measure the speed.

For more on the speed of gravity I suggest you look up the following paper by Clifford Will, who has a much better understanding of the issues than I do.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0301145

Regards,
Dr. William Folkner, JPL NASA

If you follow on to that article he links, the basic jist of the article by Clifford Will is that 1) the speed of gravity would not be calculable via observing a pulsar transit of Jupiter and 2) the speed of gravity, in current models, does not make an appreciable difference whether it is C or Cg (not=C).
 

Born2bwire

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2005
9,840
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Originally posted by: wordsworm
Sound and light waves will not display the same effects. If you approach a ticking clock at a speed comparable to the speed of sound, say half, then you will hear the ticks at 50% faster rate than before. However, the perception of time has not changed at all, if you carried a clock with you that you originally synched up at a distance from the clock, and then approached the clock at Mach 0.5, then the clocks will still be synched up. But if you move towards it at half the speed of light, time will distort and you will see a shift in time by 15%.

Now you're quoting Einstein's theory, which is a convoluted, sci-fi loving idea. Time doesn't distort. Now, I am not talking about electrodynamics or electromagnetic or even Electrolux. I was just talking about gravity. Anyways, for all that fanciful thinking in the realm of sci fi, truth is eventually going to be proved differently, and all the sci fi that's been going around the idea of time distortion is going to seem pretty silly. If I set up 3 buoys along a 300 ly path, marked A, B, and C, all of which are equidistant from each other, and I take a space ship with a synced with all three, moving in between them isn't going to distort time for the guys on the ship unless their clock has a problem.

I think the confusion Einstein had was that he figured that since there is a time distortion of 100 years and that time appeared slower as objects moved away from you and time appeared faster as they approached, he made the logical leap of thinking that time on the ship must be distorted too. Unfortunately for his idea, it's not time itself that's distorted, it's just the perception of time as we see it ahead and behind us. He thought time would freeze if you were traveling at the speed of light. Indeed, if you glanced at a clock you'd left behind, you'd see that the clock had magically frozen. Looking ahead, by contrast, would show the clock moving at 2x the same speed. By the time you get up to point B, for the men in the ship 100 years will have gone by. Looking at point A, time will seem to have stood still. Looking at point C, 100 years will have looked like 200 years had gone by.

It's very simple logic, but it isn't as fun as thinking about time distortion. The appearance of time distorts. This is actually pretty important to science on practical levels, as everyone knows.
Time dilation is well proven in many examples like the lifetime of high energy particles or the disparity in clocks between reference frames that you quickly dismiss. There has been an experiment with two synchronized atomic clocks. One clock was placed on board commercial jets for a long period of time and when compared back to the reference clock on the ground, the expected time shift had occurred. Heck, another real application where relativity needs to be taken into account is GPS. It's not just proven that the passage of time between two reference frames is perceived differently, but also that the passage of time does occur at different rates. These aren't thought experiments, these are actual phenomenon that we observe and measure. If you can't come to realize the validity of special relativity then you have no position commenting on any concept of physics developed past the days of James Clerk Maxwell.

List of examples.

 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
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Originally posted by: Nathelion
Ah yet another "I know how/why/when we can make X travel faster than light...". These are always fun

No, gravity is not an FTL effect. In fact, if it were, it'd be fairly simple to generate a time paradox.
If the sun were to mysteriously disappear (never mind how), it would, in fact, take 8 min or so for us to notice, no matter what. The gravity field of the sun would not magically disappear. It propagates at the speed of light and generally behaves like any old wave phenomenon.

How do you know that? did you magically disappear an object and measured the time it took for the gravity it exerted to be noticeable?

This reminds me of the "train experiment" someone used as evidence... about trains moving at the speed of light with clocks on them... and how the way the clocks would behave on them prove his theory... I immediately asked where I can find the train that moves at the speed of light which was used in his experiment.

it is NOT an experiment if you didn't perform it. it is not evidence if you haven't observed it after performing the experiment... If you perform hypothetical experiments in your mind you are not proving new laws of physics, you are assuming something to be a true law of physics and then create models based on it... Kind of like how Aristotle based a lot of facts on his experiments in combining elementals to create matter.. or rather, the experiments he thought up but never performed, since elementals don't exist.

For all you know if the sun was to magically disappear we WOULD notice it instantaneous.. unless you magically remove a sun from a system it is all guesswork.
 

wordsworm

Member
Jan 28, 2006
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Time dilation is well proven in many examples like the lifetime of high energy particles or the disparity in clocks between reference frames that you quickly dismiss.

The disparity isn't as simple to explain as what you purport. One simple way of looking at the 'time dilation' is to realize that it takes time for light to travel. It takes more time for it to pass through an atmosphere than a vacuum. So, there is going to be the appearance of a time dilation between the GPS and the ground. Here's a wikipedia excerpt that will help explain what it is you're mentioning.

The Global Positioning System can be considered a continuously operating experiment in both special and general relativity. The in-orbit clocks are corrected for both special and general relativistic time dilation effects so that they run at the same rate as clocks on the surface of the Earth. In addition, but not directly time dilation related, general relativistic correction terms are built into the model of motion that the satellites broadcast to receivers ? uncorrected, these effects would result in an approximately 7-metre (23 ft) oscillation in the pseudo-ranges measured by a receiver over a cycle of 12 hours.

However, things aren't as rosy for the theory as you have been led to believe: The Absolute Present presents an argument, which in conclusion, suggests that "When we examine the claims of experimental verification for special relativity (muon-decay, GPS, atomic-clock disparity, and so on) in the context of particle structures that facilitate modulation, the claims are rendered tenuous."

I think people have been relying too much on their eyes to gain evidence for the universe. You refer to experiments as if they themselves have concluded identical results, when clearly they haven't. Furthermore, it relies on clocks being unaffected by the stress of propulsion.

A problem with bringing a lot of studies into a debate is the fact that it seems relatively easy to always find one thesis that is the antithesis of another. So, what are we, mere armchair scientists to do? Well, my answer is simple: use simple logic. Logic rules the universe. It doesn't hurt that history has shown time and again that whenever we set up a speed limit, there's something or someone who's going to come along to show us how dumb our assertion was in the first place. That's what's going to happen to 300,000 km/s, it's just a matter of time.
 
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