Splinter Cell's complexity held it back, says Ubisoft Toronto lead

mindcycle

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2008
1,901
0
76
Splinter Cell: Blacklist marks another revival, of sorts, after Ubisoft took a different direction in Conviction. Each new entry seems like an attempt to modernize and update the game, appealing to new fans and old. Its old-school sensibilities have proven problematic, according to Ubisoft Toronto lead Jade Raymond.

"One of the things that held it back is despite all of the changes that have happened over the years, it's still one of the more complex and difficult games to play," Raymond told Eurogamer. "Even though we do have core fans who are like, 'Oh, I want to have more of this experience,' when you play any other game that has stealth elements, they're all a lot more forgiving than Splinter Cell. I guess Splinter Cell stayed with the most pure approach to that stealth experience."

She says the complexity comes from the "planning phase," an important part of Splinter Cell games. Instead of assessing the situation as you move, it's important to map out enemy positions, look for cover, and plan a strategy. "By default there aren't many games where that's the phase. Most games you can walk in and you start shooting right away, or you just walk in and you improvise as you go along."

Blacklist, for its part, is attempting to bridge the gap with a "broader range of play styles." It rewards stealth for making it through a stage without a single kill, and the addition of "Perfectionist" mode. But some of Sam's movements are more automated, and you can shoot your way out of situations if need-be.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/78...lexity-held-it-back-says-ubisoft-toronto-lead

I just started playing conviction recently after picking it up for $5 a few weeks back, and man is it dumbed down.. It almost seems like they force you into just blasting away during certain sections, and in general, there's no real penalty for doing that as you'll probably make it through the level just fine that way. Whats the point of a stealth game if you can just play it like a regular shooter? I have a feeling this new one will be yet another step back from what made the older games great. but really.. I probably just need to stop buying Ubishit games is what it comes down to it.
 
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Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,233
234
106
Typical BS. They've been watering it down heavily since Chaos Theory (aka the last good Splinter Cell game). I expect even more "streamlining" with the next one.
 

Phobic9

Golden Member
Apr 6, 2001
1,824
0
71
Although I bought and finished it, Splinter Cell: Conviction was just too easy and dumbed down like mindcycle says. Glad to see they're making it even more so in the next one.
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
10,877
8
81
Always amazes me how publishers will take a game that was popular because it was xxx (in this case stealth) and try and totally change it leaving just a shadow of what made popular left to appeal to a larger audience.

It's like why not scale the budget for the game back and keep it as it was towards its original intended audience. Not every game needs to sell 2+ million.

This game isn't going to appeal to the market they are trying to get now (brogamer) and they probably quadrupled the games budget trying too. It's going to fail and they will be like there isn't a market for stealth games anymore!
 

sourceninja

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2005
8,805
65
91
Conviction was a ok game, but if they dumb it down anymore it's not worth it. If I wanted to play a cover shooter I'd just buy gears of war.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Even though I own them, haven't played any of the titles without Rainbow Six inb the title and they were pretty complex and really well liked.
 

mindcycle

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2008
1,901
0
76
This game isn't going to appeal to the market they are trying to get now (brogamer) and they probably quadrupled the games budget trying too. It's going to fail and they will be like there isn't a market for stealth games anymore!

This is exactly how I feel. Not every game needs to be a Gears of War clone.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
If they just made it a big budget remake of the first game, with online coop, I would love it. The original ones were a lot of fun sneaking around and taking out enemies.
 

lilrayray69

Senior member
Apr 4, 2013
501
1
76
Yeah the first one was the best I think. It was originally designed so you could be stealthy or just run and gun if you wanted, but run and gun was pretty difficult itself as you'd die a lot.

I played the newest one I think and it had some mode you could use that basically auto-killed an entire room for you...
 

mindcycle

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2008
1,901
0
76
I played the newest one I think and it had some mode you could use that basically auto-killed an entire room for you...

Yeah it does, and it appears to me that they designed certain sections of the game around that mechanic as well. There may be a way to get around it in some cases, but if there are two guys standing around and you have an insta-kill (you get it by doing a stealth kill) it seems like they just stand in the same spot indefinitely forcing you to use it. To me this kinda sucks because i'd rather choose how I progress through the level instead of being force fed into doing the insta-kill thing.
 

sourceninja

Diamond Member
Mar 8, 2005
8,805
65
91
Yeah it does, and it appears to me that they designed certain sections of the game around that mechanic as well. There may be a way to get around it in some cases, but if there are two guys standing around and you have an insta-kill (you get it by doing a stealth kill) it seems like they just stand in the same spot indefinitely forcing you to use it. To me this kinda sucks because i'd rather choose how I progress through the level instead of being force fed into doing the insta-kill thing.

There is always a no kill way. I beat the entire game without killing anyone but the scripted kills in the story line.
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Yeah the first one was the best I think. It was originally designed so you could be stealthy or just run and gun if you wanted, but run and gun was pretty difficult itself as you'd die a lot.

I played the newest one I think and it had some mode you could use that basically auto-killed an entire room for you...

I think the first was designed around the "get in / get out undetected and if you absolutely HAVE to, kill someone as quietly as possible and hide their body" I think the later ones got away from this concept.
 

orbster556

Senior member
Dec 14, 2005
228
0
71
One would hope that the project lead would only be concerned with how certain game features affect gameplay; it is disappointing that her comments evince a higher regards for the commercial appeal of the game rather than its gameplay, story or other features.

I understand that the vast sums of capital committed to modern game projects necessitates an inquiry into the commercial viability of any project. Those inquires, however, should be led by the individuals -- or their representatives -- providing the capital. It is disappointing, and slightly disconcerting, however, to see a lead designer frame the discussion of the prospects of a particular project not in terms of its gameplay or other game-related elements but instead in its commercial appeal. Removing or altering gameplay mechanics or other features because of a fear that such elements will not appeal to the largest possible customer base -- and not because those elements are broken or can be improved -- does not auger well for the future of individual games or the games industry more generally.
 

mindcycle

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2008
1,901
0
76
There is always a no kill way. I beat the entire game without killing anyone but the scripted kills in the story line.

Humm.. maybe I just suck then. I've been playing on realistic mode (which seems odd since it still has text on the screen everywhere, but I digress..) and there were a couple parts that I couldn't see another route beside shooting dudes.. Like in the second stage I think, where you have to pick up C4 to plant on the helicopter. There are these two dudes standing in front of it. They just stand there and don't move. I try to sneak around but i'm spotted. Do you distract them or something?
 

mindcycle

Golden Member
Jan 9, 2008
1,901
0
76
..to see a lead designer frame the discussion of the prospects of a particular project not in terms of its gameplay or other game-related elements but instead in its commercial appeal. Removing or altering gameplay mechanics or other features because of a fear that such elements will not appeal to the largest possible customer base -- and not because those elements are broken or can be improved -- does not auger well for the future of individual games or the games industry more generally.

I agree, especially for a title that has been around for years and holds a good amount of nostalgia for many fans. Going out and discussing how you're changing it to appeal to "bro" gamers seems stupid. I've always felt that Jade Raymond isn't the best PR person out there, constantly saying stupid shit, and this just further proves that.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,568
3
0
Yeah, they lost me completely with Double Agent.

I remember when if a bad guy with a gun even got a good look at Sam you were 90% fucked. Now it's a cover-based shooter with stealth sections.

What this is is "We made a successful franchise, but we wanted to make more money than even that. So we dumbed it down toward the lowest common denominator and now we're telling you we didn't."
 
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JamesV

Platinum Member
Jul 9, 2011
2,002
2
76
Have a large fanbase that made your IP valuable? Lots of fan sites and good word of mouth?

But it didn't sell 10 million copies? Well, the game must be broken then. Let's remove 90% of strategy and parts where the player has to think, make the enemies dumber than Bush, and liberally add quick time events. Our original fans will thank us, because they had no idea how broken the game they thought they loved was.
 

thejunglegod

Golden Member
Feb 12, 2012
1,358
36
91
Probably the same shit happened with hitman Absolution. I couldn't believe how easy it was to move from mission to mission without any trouble. Guess they're trying to appeal to a much broader target audience, since my girlfriend seems to love it. I've tried playing hitman 2 Silent Assassin recently and I still have trouble in most missions. Sigh. If only they'd keep it that way.


Posted from Anandtech.com App for Android
 

paperfist

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2000
6,517
280
126
www.the-teh.com
http://www.shacknews.com/article/78...lexity-held-it-back-says-ubisoft-toronto-lead

I just started playing conviction recently after picking it up for $5 a few weeks back, and man is it dumbed down.. It almost seems like they force you into just blasting away during certain sections, and in general, there's no real penalty for doing that as you'll probably make it through the level just fine that way. Whats the point of a stealth game if you can just play it like a regular shooter? I have a feeling this new one will be yet another step back from what made the older games great. but really.. I probably just need to stop buying Ubishit games is what it comes down to it.

But regular shooters do the same thing. You're now led down a path of scripted events and actor encounters. The outcome is always the same: you win! Even facing 20 foes you may die a few times, but you respawn without any ill effects. Heck some are dumbed down to the point that your heath regenerates.
 

Sulaco

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2003
3,860
44
91
Have a large fanbase that made your IP valuable? Lots of fan sites and good word of mouth?

But it didn't sell 10 million copies? Well, the game must be broken then. Let's remove 90% of strategy and parts where the player has to think, make the enemies dumber than Bush, and liberally add quick time events. Our original fans will thank us, because they had no idea how broken the game they thought they loved was.

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Finally someone gets it!

This, in a nutshell, is probably the BIGGEST issue with the games industry now. Could not have said it better myself.

Far too frequently, when there's a GREAT game that ISN'T a shooter, that sells well (but less than BattleCoD 43), the publisher decides that they COULD sell as well as BattleCoD 43, if only they dumbed it down more.

Ghost Recon
Dead Space
Resident Evil
Silent Hill
Rainbow Six
Splinter Cell
Hitman
Final Fantasy
Dragon Age
Civilization
Sim City
Mass Effect

..and many more.


It's as if games and IPs are no longer good enough if they aren't selling with CoD numbers attached, and it means games in even slightly niche genres end up having to be "streamlined" to appeal to EVERYONE.
 

PrincessFrosty

Platinum Member
Feb 13, 2008
2,301
68
91
www.frostyhacks.blogspot.com
Lets cut straight through the bullshit with a light saber and call this on what it is.

It's easy mode for the casual audience so they can appeal to bigger numbers, classic sellout move. I've not been invested in Splinter Cell since the awful console port one, I can't even remember the name now...the one with massive button prompts on the screen, where his light meter was stapled to his back and was like a red green traffic light style configuration.

Yeah, anyway, the splinter cell series died there, it's starting to rot and stink up the place now, someone throw it in the garbage already.
 

Sulaco

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2003
3,860
44
91
Lets cut straight through the bullshit with a light saber and call this on what it is.

It's easy mode for the casual audience so they can appeal to bigger numbers, classic sellout move. I've not been invested in Splinter Cell since the awful console port one, I can't even remember the name now...the one with massive button prompts on the screen, where his light meter was stapled to his back and was like a red green traffic light style configuration.

Yeah, anyway, the splinter cell series died there, it's starting to rot and stink up the place now, someone throw it in the garbage already.

The Splinter Cell series has actually always been console-first....at least, it started as an Xbox exclusive, and was later ported to the PC.

The first several games in the series, even Chaos Theory I believe, appeared on Xbox awhile before being brought to PC.

Personally, I think the series started going downhill at Double Agent. Not so much because of dumbing down either, it was just a pretty awful story and IMO boring stages/objectives compared to the previous.
 

gonvik

Member
Mar 11, 2005
119
0
0
Did anyone enjoy the Chaos Theory multiplayer? "Mercs versus Spies" was some of the most fun I've had in a multi game. Chaos Theory's MP expanded on Pandora Tomorrow's MP in a very good way.

Then Double Agent came out and the multiplayer for that really took a dive in my opinion. Every now and then I still check out the lobby of CT's multiplayer on the PC, and there are still people out there enjoying it.

Overall, it's very disappointing with the way the series has gone since then.
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,740
452
126
The Splinter Cell series has actually always been console-first....at least, it started as an Xbox exclusive, and was later ported to the PC.

The first several games in the series, even Chaos Theory I believe, appeared on Xbox awhile before being brought to PC.

Personally, I think the series started going downhill at Double Agent. Not so much because of dumbing down either, it was just a pretty awful story and IMO boring stages/objectives compared to the previous.

Yup

It's really annoying to see people blame consoles for games getting easier when the games they remembered fondly were console games. Fact is that the developer mindset has changed across the board and doesn't seem to have much to do with consoles regardless of what the majority of bitchy PC gamers think. Splinter Cell was an xbox exclusive for quite a while, and was very successful on that console (look at how many sequels it spawned). It had three solid games in a row that did very well on the xbox, and decently well on the PC. Actually the 3rd isn't even fondly remembered on the PC because it had some really screwed up DRM if I remember right.

The point is, the thought process of dumbing down games is constantly being blamed on consoles, but that's not the entire story. We know that console games used to be harder too so what happened? Splinter Cell is a perfect example of a game that got dumbed down over time for no other reason that a developer that doesn't understand why their game was popular.
 
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