Spreading Democracy by the Sword

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
The 600,000 Iraqi murders by Bush should ...

You just put your foot in your mouth, and then shot your foot.
/thread anybody?

As for democracy in Iraq, this video should enlighten you a little bit.

It's funny to see people actually believe that US was going into Iraq in order to install a puppet regime and actually get away with it in this day and age. Just look at how much media coverage there is now in contrast to what was the situation under Saddam -- it took the dethroning of the Baath regime in order to unearth mass graves of the regime's victims.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Democracy > Sharia.

/thread

Do you really want a run for your money?

Yes, I do. But I seriously doubt you'll give me one.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: The Green Bean
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: palehorse74
Democracy > Sharia.

/thread

</end quote></div>

Do you really want a run for your money?</end quote></div>
Yes, I do. But I seriously doubt you'll give me one.

Before we debate, a set of measures for "<" and ">" must be decided upon. This is not mathematics.

 

[keird]

My nation's enemies routinely demonstrate their inhumanity.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: keird
My nation's enemies routinely demonstrate their inhumanity.

I really can't understand how you they are different from any other American criminals. The only difference is that you has better security in America. I don't see how this is anybody else's problem. You invaded Iraq and caused a HUGE increase in crime. Why are ordinary criminals labeled enemies? Alqaeeda now is no longer but a label. All those criminals that can not be handled by the small American force in America is a member of Alqaeeda. Or that's how it' portrayed to the general public. Alqaeeda in reality probably comprises of less than 1% of the total "insurgent" population. Infact, they have major differences with the local shiah and sunni versions of Islam.

 

[The Green Bean]

You just put your foot in your mouth, and then shot your foot.
/thread anybody?

So you believe not even one death was Bush's fault? It was an illegal war not sanctioned by the U.N based on lies. Every death should be treated as murder.

edit: sorry. The forums still have problems.

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: dna

It's funny to see people actually believe that US was going into Iraq in order to install a puppet regime and actually get away with it in this day and age. Just look at how much media coverage there is now in contrast to what was the situation under Saddam -- it took the dethroning of the Baath regime in order to unearth mass graves of the regime's victims.

This is almost like claiming divinity by on the basis of lesser evil.

 

[Conservationist]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
A recent survey showed that Britain's muslims would rather live under Shariah law than under a democratic government.

I'm not sure I want to live under democracy. The masses seem to pick the wrong answer every time.

 

[keird]

Perhaps you should measure the Jihadists with the same critical eye as you use criticize the United States. Arab governments suck.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
This is almost like claiming divinity by on the basis of lesser evil.

Sure, if you turn it inside out and look at it through a mirror.

So you believe not even one death was Bush's fault? It was an illegal war not sanctioned by the U.N based on lies. Every death should be treated as murder.

Gee -- absolving Arabs from reponsibility (yet again) while blaming Bush, or not -- what a tough call....

As for "UN sanctioned wars", many countries in the Middle East have started ones against the-ones-who-shall-not-be-named, and I don't recall the UN jumping up to condemn those actions as murders.

Perhaps it would best if you keep the UN card deep in the socks drawer.

Anyway, I noticed you employ Narmer-ian tactics by ignoring the video I linked to.

 

[keird]

I think that Arabs haven't had a decent government since the Mongol Invasion. 1256 AD, lets see... 751 years.

 

[blackangst1]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: dna
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: The Green Bean
This is almost like claiming divinity by on the basis of lesser evil.</end quote></div>
Sure, if you turn it inside out and look at it through a mirror.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>So you believe not even one death was Bush's fault? It was an illegal war not sanctioned by the U.N based on lies. Every death should be treated as murder.</end quote></div>
Gee -- absolving Arabs from reponsibility (yet again) while blaming Bush, or not -- what a tough call....

As for "UN sanctioned wars", many countries in the Middle East have started ones against the-ones-who-shall-not-be-named, and I don't recall the UN jumping up to condemn those actions as murders.

Perhaps it would best if you keep the UN card deep in the socks drawer.

Anyway, I noticed you employ Narmer-ian tactics by ignoring the video I linked to.</end quote></div>

QFT. So many who are extereme Bush haters (I despise him on several issues, but not blindly) get up on their bully pulpit crying "The world didnt support us!" (which is bullsh1t)..."The UN didnt sanction it!" etc...yet with the other side of their mouth criticize the UN...which one is it? Who friggin cares what the UN thinks...seriously...

We as humans tend to pick and choose "facts" no matter what the source to validate our own personal "feel good" opinion. The problem is there are so many sides to an issue, there isnt really a right or wrong one. It's all subjective. And of course, those one side claim the ones on the other are blind, paranoid, sheeple, and on and on and on. So who is "right"? If both sides can prove their point, who is "right"? One sides "source" is another side's laughingstock.

It's always been that way, it always will be. Why this futile effort to change people? Whats wrong with acceptance? You claim acceptance as long as you agree with it.

As for the OP, my explaination above applies to governments actions as well. The Chinese think their's is best. The US thinks their's is best. The muslim countries think their's is best. The dictatorships think their's is best. But it's all subjective. Again, not only can you NOT prove it, it would be futile to try. The world IS the way it IS. Going back thousands of years have proven this, and we really arent any different now than we were 1000 years ago. War is, and always will be, around. There's all this naive talk of coming together in peace...negotiating...working it out over a cup of tea. It's useless. We as humans can not, nor will be ever, be on the same page in regards to whats best for ourselves, our country, and other countries.

Do you all REALLY think another president will be any different? I mean honestly...do you? It's not about sides, its not about political parties. Not really. It's about us as a people. Our next president will hated and have eyes rolled at like this one. And the last one. And the one before that. Get real people. Your grandios ideas of any candidate being any different is absurd.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

When we say 'spread democracy' we actually mean 'secure US interests'.

Google 'Operation Ajax' to discover how we really feel about democracy.

 

[imported_dna]

Gotta love people who pop out of nowhere and bring up such historical events without any historical context -- it makes the paper bag over the head avatar even more suitable.

Back then the Cold War was on, and the little players always got kicked around; perhaps you've heard of Prague Spring?
Seems like the Soviets didn't like the change, but I don't hear you complaining about that.

 

[Conservationist]

Originally posted by: keird
Perhaps you should measure the Jihadists with the same critical eye as you use criticize the United States. Arab governments suck.

It's possible that both suck, and that the type of government is implicated in both cases, or that the situation is more complex.

 

[The Green Bean]

What is interesting is that Yemen, the only free Arab country has the WORST standard of living. So obviously it's not working as it should. People only emigrate to America because of job opportunities. Most Arabs and subcontinentals are more familiar with English language and therefore prefer England or the US to states like Japan. Besdies, NO ONE emigrates from rich arab states like UAE for eg.

 

[imported_dna]

So now you're an expect in economics and politics. Nice.....

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: dna
Gotta love people who pop out of nowhere and bring up such historical events without any historical context -- it makes the paper bag over the head avatar even more suitable.

Back then the Cold War was on, and the little players always got kicked around; perhaps you've heard of Prague Spring?
Seems like the Soviets didn't like the change, but I don't hear you complaining about that.

Yes, I only complain about the wrongs paid for by my tax dollars and committed in my name.

So, now that the Cold War is over, we truly care about democracy? Or do we still only pay lip service to that ideal? Let's face it, it's an advertising slogan to to cloak our 'soft' imperialistic activities.

Yes, the little guys do indeed get kicked around. Which is why we don't like the idea of such little guys arming themselves with the ONLY deterrent which will ensure we don't kick them around again.

We're not afraid of external aggression from the likes of Iran, we're actually afraid their increased power will limit our ability to manipulate the region and the financial and geopolitical consequences of such.

In other words, it's bad for American business. And THAT is what it's ALL about.

Oops, wait, I mean it's all about freedom, democracy and liberty and our God given responsibility to inflict, oops I mean gift, it upon the world.

 

[imported_dna]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
So, now that the Cold War is over, we truly care about democracy? Or do we still only pay lip service to that ideal? Let's face it, it's an advertising slogan to to cloak our 'soft' imperialistic activities.

Here's a little tip: don't cite events from over half a century ago as the some sort of absolute proof if you wish to disregard the historical context.

As for imperialism, I've already stated it: if you think that in this day and age anything of that sort could take place, then you are delusional: too much running media running around, as well as people with interent-enabled gadgets; you would need a dictatorial regime -- hint, hint -- in order to be able to make tens of thousands of people vanish without a trace.

Even if the the only motive behind the dethroning of Saddam was oil, there is no way that the USA could've done what could be done during the cold war. You should be more concerned with what's going on in Russia, where journalists have the odd tendency of "perishing", and the rhetoric is more stern.

Also, the video I pointed out earlier is interesting, as it brings a valid point of view: there would've been no change without the intervention of an external force. Of cource, you can always say he's a CIA agent.