Squating/shoe question

[brad310]

So since ive started trying to do legit squats a few weeks ago, i picked up the converse chuck taylors...and they're solid like advertised.

My problem with trying to do a squat is that my butt goes too far back and my back bends too far forward - i doubt my knees go over my toes. Even if I try to think 'chest up', my hips dont break parallel when i have a load on it. I can do the bar with good form. I can do 95 with good form. When i go up to 135/185, my torso leans forward and my butt goes way back, and legs "feel" parallel, but when i watch myself on video its the "3/4 squat" look.

Is it possible to descend too slowly? Am i overthinking it? Ive been trying to fix this squat form for several workouts now and starting to get frustrated. It almost feels like the high elbows makes my torso lean far forward naturally.

Do real lifting shoes help with this, like the adidas shoe? or should i just keep trying it in the chucks?

 

[brikis98]

Post a video.

 

[conorvansmack]

Keep trying with chucks.

Practicing in front of a wall without any weight helped me a lot. Get into your squat stance (heels shoulder-width apart, feet kicked out at about 30 degrees) and squat down without your knees touching the wall. Your nose will likely be about to touch when you're at the bottom.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

It's not your shoes' fault. It's your lack of dorsiflexion and hip flexion, in all likelihood. You're gonna need to work on some solid mobility before you will be able to hit a full depth squat.

 

[coreyb]

chucks arent squat shoes

 

[GoNiners!]

I can't speak on your form as I have to see it but in regards to shoes, I have always done squats/deadlifts with just my socks on. I used to wear my regular gym shoes (a running shoe of some sort) but about 3 years ago I restarted squat/deadlift with a focus on free-weight exercises only and found doing it barefoot worked the best for me.

On squat days I typically go into the gym setup the power rack and then take off my shoes and set them aside. When I am done with squats I put my shoes back on and go to my next exercise.

I also do my dumbell shrugs barefoot too along with rack pulls. I have seen 1 guy in the gym use the vibram 5 fingers but I converted him to socks only. It's just more comfortable and dare I say, more natural. Give it a shot with squats and see if it helps your balance a little.

I find squatting in anything less than lifting shoes with heavy weight (400-500 lbs) you run the risk of compressing the soles of the shoes in an uneven manner and not having a uniform flat surface for your feet. I blew out the air-pockets in a pair of nikes doing squats once. Very dumb on my part and part of the reason why I went barefoot/socks only.

 

[jbt52]

I agree with SociallyChallenged, you just need to get your form right and increase mobility. Focus on doing it the proper way, do it next to a mirror if it helps while you are actually in the act, rather than watching it after, so you can try to correct your form while doing it.

 

[Deeko]

1) Yes, you can descend too slowly. I find that with my squats, if I go too slow and try to "feel" the hole, I usually bend forward too much and don't go deep enough, whereas if I just go down and hit it, I stay more upright and go deeper.

2) While a shoe with a good heal, like the Adidas you mentioned (I squat in these) would help, at your level, you'd be better served by working on your tecnique and flexibility than spending a lot of money on shoes to hide the problem.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

If your form suddenly turns to crap at highers weights did you ever think that it's too heavy for you? Don't worry about squatting a ton just to look good in the gym. Only load the bar with what you can handle and still maintain form. Even if you're only doing the bar it will help you increase your hip mobility, and build some muscle memory for proper form when you are ready to add weight.

I was squatting 260 5x5 about 5 months ago, and I'm starting over again with just the bar to get my flexibility back after an injury. No matter how much weight you are lifting no one looks like a tough guy in the gym when you're curled up on the ground cause you threw your back out.

 

[Gravity]

5 fingers are what I use. I did crossfit for about 6 months and they like minimalist shoes. Running shoes are a definite problem as they tend to elevate your heel and provide an unstable platform.

Gravity

 

[brad310]

If your form suddenly turns to crap at highers weights did you ever think that it's too heavy for you?

Yes. I worked hard on form today and i think it is a number of things wrong with me. Its chest up, knees go forward, butt drops down...all ok with lighter weight, but goes to hell after about 155.

Its a blow to my ego, as i figured my legs were stronger than my upper body. Im older, but i was in the army (infantry), played baseball through high school...never would have imagined my legs were this lame. I can put 10 plates on the leg press and get good depth there, but on the squat i just suck. I guess thats what i get for not ever having known the importance of, or how to do, a squat.

Since my form goes to crap with weight, then i guess i just overestimated my strength and i'll have to start with a baseline of 135 working sets until it becomes second nature.

Im going to get the adidas shoe though. I really enjoy it, and i'll do it for the rest of my life.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Leg strength is only a small part of being good at squatting. On a leg press you aren't using any stabilizer muscles because you aren't forced to use your whole body to steady the weight. The machine does it for you.

Now speaking of vanity why is 135 the baseline you are starting with? Try starting at just the bar, and add 5 pounds to the bar every day you lift. You will build mobility, and improve your technique. In almost no time at all you will be surprised at how much weight you are lifting.

 

[brad310]

So i did go ahead and get some shoes, i was going to get the adidas but changed my mind after reading as much as i can. Settled on the rogue do-win.

http://www.roguefitness.com/rogue-weightlifting-shoes.php

Vulgar, i think your right. It probably isnt my leg strength, but more a factor of my stabilizing muscles - either low back or adductors, idk...but i feel like i have plenty of strength left in the tank, i just cant get to it because my form breaks down.

As far as why go with 135? Thats where i feel comfortable and form leaves me when i go up from there. I have been starting with no bar, just squatting and pushing my knees out with elbows, then going to bar, to 65, 95, 115, 135. Even after working through those im going back to the bar at the end just to try to build in some muscle memory or some goddamn thing to get this form fixed so i can move on and up.

 

[GoNiners!]

I haven't been able to do squats since my shoulder surgery due to range of motion issues with my arm. I can't get it back far enough to support the bar comfortably.

I am looking forward to being able to do squats again but the first couple of days after my first squat session are going to suck. No soreness matches the soreness in my legs and hips from doing squats after a significant layoff. I did have an issue with pain in my left hip. I am hoping that has gone away with the extended break from squats.

Good luck with your routine and I hope those shoes workout for you.

 

[brad310]

Ok so i think i fixed it. The shoes havent arrived yet, but i changed from the low bar rippetoe eyes down method to a high bar with eyes straight ahead. I think flexability in my pecs was forcing my to bend over at the waist. By putting the bar up on my traps instead of my rear delt, i was able to squat deeper and with more weight. A low bar had me struggling with form at 135. A high bar let me do 5x5x185 with ATG and i felt stronger. I got much more of the bounce out of the hole and my back doesnt hurt at all.

I cant wait to get the shoes and see how that helps. I still need to focus on getting my knees out, because thats not second nature yet, but today was a very successful day. I feel like i can build on this and start progressing. Hopefully i can be on 225 work sets by the end of the summer.

 

[Doppel]

I think the thinner, less significant show the better, even go barefoot (though not in a public gym obviously).

 

[996GT2]

Keep in mind that if you get olympic shoes with a raised heel, you will have to use a narrower stance (shoulder-width). Some people prefer a wide stance when squatting (a more PL-style squat), and for that kind of low-bar squatting Chuck Taylors are great.

 

[Deeko]

Keep in mind that if you get olympic shoes with a raised heel, you will have to use a narrower stance (shoulder-width). Some people prefer a wide stance when squatting (a more PL-style squat), and for that kind of low-bar squatting Chuck Taylors are great.

Almost every powerlifter I know uses a very wide stance, along with a shoe with some sort of heal. They all pull in Chucks, but I don't think any of them squat in them.

 

[996GT2]

Almost every powerlifter I know uses a very wide stance, along with a shoe with some sort of heal. They all pull in Chucks, but I don't think any of them squat in them.

From what I've heard, most powerlifting shoes don't have as high of a heel as Olympic weightlifting shoes. The Inzer Pillar shoes, for example, don't seem to have much of a heel (maybe 1/4 inch), since the sole is consistently thick from front to back.

http://www.inzernet.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=PILLAR_SHOE

Most Olympic shoes have heel heights of 1 inch to 1.5 inch (about .75-1 inch effective heel elevation). I've heard from several places that lower heeled shoes are better for a wide stance low-bar squat, but I'm sure that observation doesn't apply to everyone. Personally speaking, I've found it less comfortable to squat with a wide stance after switching to Adidas Oly shoes from Chucks.

 

[Deeko]

There are a few IPF world record holders at my gym that lift in the Adidas shoes. Of course, everyone is a little different with their stance, build and preferences, but in general, you don't see a whole lot of powerlifters that squat in a flat shoe. Adidas, Safe, Inzer, Rogue, even old school boots...they've got some sort of heal.

Edit: I do know a couple of very wide stance APF guys who squat in Chucks (one of them has a 1000 lb squat), so they are out there, but, they are the exception from what I typically see.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Keep in mind that if you get olympic shoes with a raised heel, you will have to use a narrower stance (shoulder-width). Some people prefer a wide stance when squatting (a more PL-style squat), and for that kind of low-bar squatting Chuck Taylors are great.

What? The heel in the shoes doesn't dictate the width of the stance. It just reduces the limitations of not having enough dorsiflexion (or needing slightly more after normal). But, like I said, that doesn't dictate stance width. You can squat wide, normal, or narrow in them still.

 

[brad310]

Does anyone have a link to a good read on the low bar vs high bar? (or an experienced opinion?) Im going to the high bar against the rippetoe recommended method because the more i look the more i see so many other great lifters teaching and doing it that way, and it works better for my body. I searched teh starting strength forum and didnt find anything.

I should get the rogues in this week and ill let you know how they impact the feel for me.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I personally found high bar squats to be very painful at higher weights. Resting the bar below your traps for a low bar squat is just much more comfortable to me.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I personally found high bar squats to be very painful at higher weights. Resting the bar below your traps for a low bar squat is just much more comfortable to me.

For me, comfort was the biggest issue. Squatting 300lbs on your neck isn't very comfortable and actually put my neck in a bad position. Some people swear by it though as it's more applicable to the weight distribution of movements like the front squat and activates musculature slightly differently. Oly lifters tend to do high bar. Power lifters tend to use either, but I've seen a bit more low bar in that population.

 

[spamsk8r]

Does anyone have a link to a good read on the low bar vs high bar? (or an experienced opinion?) Im going to the high bar against the rippetoe recommended method because the more i look the more i see so many other great lifters teaching and doing it that way, and it works better for my body. I searched teh starting strength forum and didnt find anything.

I should get the rogues in this week and ill let you know how they impact the feel for me.

I've done a lot of both types, and currently prefer a high-bar, Olympic style (fairly narrow stance) squat. I should mention that I do a lot of Olympic lifting, and the high bar back squat is much better for that. But I also find that when you get the mobility/flexibility to correctly do a high-bar squat it's just better on the body. A wider stance can cause problems with knees caving in (valgus movement) and more strain on connective tissues. The high-bar requires me to work my external rotation in my hips more, keeps my knees feeling fresh, and allows for a more upright torso position that translates much better to the Clean and the Snatch. I suggest doing some kind of hip/quad/glute mobility work every day as well. I've just recently started doing that and I feel so much better on the whole.