SSD reliablity dependance on what main factor?

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,060
10,242
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I'm under the impression that OCZ's perceived greater reliability issues are down to that they were the first to start using SandForce controllers, so of course they're going to bear the brunt of new technology.
 

pitz

Senior member
Feb 11, 2010
461
0
0
Firmware, and recovery from an improper shutdown condition seems to be behind much of the problems. Haven't heard of physical issues being an issue.

The data compression-based nature of the Sandforce chipsets implies that there is somewhat of a greater level of complexity in keeping internal block databases consistent during certain exogenous conditions.

I'm sure OCZ didn't mean to deliberately release drives that went bad, but its not always the easiest to test very highly complex filesystems for their overall data integrity unless some incredibly demanding test conditions are placed upon them.
 

Helicobacter

Member
Dec 29, 2010
43
0
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Doesnt firmware fall under the board manufacturer's realm? Or does the firmware only update the controller?
 

Coup27

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2010
2,140
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This thread / poll is dumb. However the answer is firmware, which isn't even on the list.
 

corkyg

Elite Member | Peripherals
Super Moderator
Mar 4, 2000
27,370
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106
Is firmware not connected to the controller, thus part of it?
 

Coup27

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2010
2,140
3
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Is firmware not connected to the controller, thus part of it?
Firmware is the code which works the controller, but this varies from vendor to vendor.

For example, the current Marvell controller which is doing so well is used in the Crucial m4, the Intel 510 and the new Corsair Performance Pro. All of these SSDs will have different reliability "scores". The m4 is on its 4th firmware. The 510 has only ever had 1. The Corsair could have ??

The above is the only reason Intel would be releasing a SF2281 based drive. If every SF2281 drive released was 100% reliable and compatible, Intel would have no market there and would have to think again. Because for whatever reason that hasn't been the case, Intel's 520 (if the rumours are true) will be a SF2281 based drive which will, if they get it right, sell because it will be seen to be SF speed, but Intel reliability.

It's the firmware which is vendor independant from the controller which decides what's going on. This why everytime an SSD has borked, it's been a firmware update which has fixed it, but only to that vendors SSD.
 

corkyg

Elite Member | Peripherals
Super Moderator
Mar 4, 2000
27,370
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Firmware is the code which works the controller, but this varies from vendor to vendor. . . .

Agree! And therefore, for the purposes of the poll, the controller would include whatever firmware is linked to it. This would then account for reliability variations in the general conext for all brands.
 

groberts101

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2011
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No offense intended here.. but most people who start threads like these.. or even those who respond to them for that matter.. don't understand enough about how these things work sometimes. Not all is as it seems here to the casual forum goer or even those who have had issue with these drives.

First of all. Sandforce pushes almost the entire validation process onto its vendors which is contrary to other controller mfgrs in the industry.

So with that in mind it seems pretty simple to figure out that those who go to market first and sell the most drives would appear to be most problematic from the casual users perspective. Did OCZ jump the gun and shoot themselves in the foot by releasing without sufficient testing? Yes they did, IMHO. But others were not without issue either though even as they waited to release their versions of these drives. Was it worth the gain in the end even at the expense of lost credibility(no one likes to be pushed into the beta-testing process) and higher RMA numbers? Their stock(along with others using this controller) says YES IT WAS! Speed sells like sex in this industry and many just want more and more.

Hence much of the reason why OCZ has the bad rep that it does since Sandforce has fueled their SSD portfolio(from the very first SF-1xxx series controller released) more than any other controller to date. They were first to market.. they sold more.. they fixed more. Simple stuff when boiled right down.

The Everest and Everest 2 controllers will work to change that negative mentality as there is obviously much more to an SSD than just synthetic benchmark speeds. I can tell you from firsthand experience that the Octane is much better in actual usage than the benchmarks will show.

This new controller also finally gives OCZ complete in-house control to validate in a much more timely manner(no long drawn out ping-pong match to get things sorted out). Which unbeknownst to others.. is much of the issue with OCZ(and other vendors as well) and Sandforce's partnership since the process is a constant overly long ping-pong match as the firmware is tested and tweaked back and forth between the two. This of course leaves the end-user who would see and advise of issues to be stuck in the middle and ultimately at the end of the line for actual fixes.

The funniest thing I see out of all this is the interpretation from others(and even those using other vendors models) is that they think firmware code is entirely developed on each individual vendors dime. Not true at all as the trickledown effect applies in a very big way across the spectrum of vendors using these controllers.

Should also be obvious that OCZ is watched and followed more than any other SF vendor due to the transparency of their forum environment and the sheer volume of products sold(and having issue). They release firmware before all others(usually by several weeks) and the others watch to see where it goes before implementing them into their code as well. So, if one vendor finds an underlying issue in usage.. applies workarounds or tries a quickly implemented(weeks in "Sandforce time") firmware patch? ALL vendors are paying VERY close attention to what is being proven to work across that spectrum.

So in a way, OCZ actually leads the way in testing of these particular controllers(although it appears to be at the end users expense) as they are constantly in the habit of sticking their necks out further than others to get higher sales volume for these products. This of course leaves them open for ridicule and the assumption that others are doing much more in-house validation before releasing their fixes. Everyone is using everyone and ultimately Sandforce uses them all to further their product, is all this crap amounts to.

And it is very much fact that all issues with the SF-2281 controller was not squarely on OCZ's shoulders. I witnessed firsthand(through beta-testing these controllers), and all over the net(including other vendors), a multitude of Intel driver fixes(IME was HUGE in this regard).. improperly defaulted power mgmt setting workarounds.. along with board CMOS issues(hotplugging ON by default was a biggie here too as it told Intels drivers that the drives were external and removable) that were able to take unstable SF controlled drives and make them COMPLETELY stable. Many cases were remedied before the very first firmware fix was ever released with many of these workarounds. That should say something in itself as to the potential for other underlying issues being at play.

It was only after all the underlying issues were completely understood that OCZ(along with others) was able to feed Sandforce enough info to replicate things on their end to be able to actually apply workarounds from the firmware end of the picture. And don't be so niave to think that everyone wasn't watching everyone throughout the troubleshooting process. I and a few others with higher vantage points to these issues also saw the obvious feet dragging going on as Intel was entering the picture with plans of using this controller as well. Money talks of course and that's just life in general though and it's neither here nor there at this point. Just sayin, is all.

And FYI here.. when it takes the SSD controller mfgr, several vendors using them, mobo mfgrs, tens of thousands of users, and the world’s largest chipset mfgr to build a subsystem and resultant firmware that works seamlessly across various hardware configurations to figure all these things out?.. you can bet your ass that the controllers firmware is much more complex than many give it credit for. Intel jumping into the game this late is simply to gain a bit of the very popular Sandforce market and further position themselves for the next gens release. Even lower latency.. higher incompressible write speeds.. what's not to like about such a potentially good controller? They'd be stupid NOT to get a headstart into getting an even bigger slice of that pie.

Welcome to the Sandforce follies.
 
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Coup27

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2010
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Agree! And therefore, for the purposes of the poll, the controller would include whatever firmware is linked to it. This would then account for reliability variations in the general conext for all brands.
You could view it like that yes, but then the poll would become so simple for such a complex subject that it really is rather pointless.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
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Crap, I recently bought an OCZ because I thought they were considered good. Did not realize they had issues... should I return it and buy Intel? Guess it was on sale for a reason.
 

Helicobacter

Member
Dec 29, 2010
43
0
0
Just came back and saw a lot of great responses. Thanks for all the info!

I do have to admit blunder in the poll answer choices, because someone could say:
"Well, firmware is linked to the specific board manufacturer and therefore he is at fault for not releasing a decent firmware soon enough."
Someone else could say:
"Firmware is only updating controller procedures and therefore a dated controller is at fault."
 
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Coup27

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2010
2,140
3
81
Just came back and saw a lot of great responses. Thanks for all the info!

I do have to admit blunder in the poll answer choices, because someone could say:
"Well, firmware is linked to the specific board manufacturer and therefore he is at fault for not releasing a decent firmware soon enough."
Someone else could say:
"Firmware is only updating controller procedures and therefore a dated controller is at fault."
No offense mate but SSD reliability and compatibility is such a complicated subject with so many different factors involved, some of which have been mentioned by myself and groberts101, that it simply cannot be collated into a poll with 3 choices.
 

Helicobacter

Member
Dec 29, 2010
43
0
0
No offense mate but SSD reliability and compatibility is such a complicated subject with so many different factors involved, some of which have been mentioned by myself and groberts101, that it simply cannot be collated into a poll with 3 choices.

Not really true when you can form an encoded regression model

[Proportion of drives returned] = A*[Controller manufacturer] +B*[Board manufacturer]

and explain >90% of the variation with this model alone at every RMA hub - which is most likely the case.

I think it was a little caustic to start off with that OCZ comment and I have to admit that speed is a very important factor for some people:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2011/05/the-hot-crazy-solid-state-drive-scale.html
and OCZ SSD's are leading the speed benchmarks.
 
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Coup27

Platinum Member
Jul 17, 2010
2,140
3
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Not really true when you can form an encoded regression model

[Proportion of drives returned] = A*[Controller manufacturer] +B*[Board manufacturer]

and explain >90% of the variation with this model alone at every RMA hub - which is most likely the case.
What?
 

Helicobacter

Member
Dec 29, 2010
43
0
0
I'm saying that even though you don't take the complicated factors (compression, wear-control, error correction etc.) into account, you can shift responsibility to the board manufacturer for not pushing out correcting firmware soon enough, and shift responsibility to the controller manufacturer for not having reliable controller chips.

Actually, you can shift all blame to the board manufacturer because it was the entity picking the low-grade OR untested controller.

I am also saying that failure/RMA proportions can be very easily and accurately explained by whoever produces the SSD, even though the underlying root causes of failure can be very complicated.
 
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Helicobacter

Member
Dec 29, 2010
43
0
0
This thread / poll is dumb. However the answer is firmware, which isn't even on the list.

Yes I am an SSD n00b and didn't know about firmware, but you have to start somewhere.

A quantum mechanics professor answering a simplistic question of an interested student saying "Your question is dumb" is kind of a dick.
 
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Helicobacter

Member
Dec 29, 2010
43
0
0
Sounds like a smear post.

I don't own shares/work for any competitor (or have any relatives that do) and I never owned an SSD by any manufacturer.

AND I acknowledge the fact that OCZ has some of the fastest SSD's in the market, which is the main point of having these devices anyway.
 
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Helicobacter

Member
Dec 29, 2010
43
0
0
No offense intended here.. but most people who start threads like these.. or even those who respond to them for that matter.. don't understand enough about how these things work sometimes. Not all is as it seems here to the casual forum goer or even those who have had issue with these drives.

Guilty as charged.

First of all. Sandforce pushes almost the entire validation process onto its vendors which is contrary to other controller mfgrs in the industry.

It's still your call - and therefore responsibility - to accept the controller or not. If Toyota comes out with a Camry 2013 that uses untested parts - it is Toyota's fault for using them .

If another company, say Honda, offsets the launch of a new vehicle and loses potential increased revenues - just because they want to wait for a certain part to get more reliable and validate it, then the brand justly deserves its image.

So with that in mind it seems pretty simple to figure out that those who go to market first and sell the most drives would appear to be most problematic from the casual users perspective. Did OCZ jump the gun and shoot themselves in the foot by releasing without sufficient testing? Yes they did, IMHO. But others were not without issue either though even as they waited to release their versions of these drives. Was it worth the gain in the end even at the expense of lost credibility(no one likes to be pushed into the beta-testing process) and higher RMA numbers? Their stock(along with others using this controller) says YES IT WAS! Speed sells like sex in this industry and many just want more and more.

Agreed. There is an obvious tradeoff there between going aggressively for speed and conservatively going for what's safe and slower. And product differentiation is good for the market.
 
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Helicobacter

Member
Dec 29, 2010
43
0
0

Hence much of the reason why OCZ has the bad rep that it does since Sandforce has fueled their SSD portfolio(from the very first SF-1xxx series controller released) more than any other controller to date. They were first to market.. they sold more.. they fixed more. Simple stuff when boiled right down.

The Everest and Everest 2 controllers will work to change that negative mentality as there is obviously much more to an SSD than just synthetic benchmark speeds. I can tell you from firsthand experience that the Octane is much better in actual usage than the benchmarks will show.

This new controller also finally gives OCZ complete in-house control to validate in a much more timely manner(no long drawn out ping-pong match to get things sorted out). Which unbeknownst to others.. is much of the issue with OCZ(and other vendors as well) and Sandforce's partnership since the process is a constant overly long ping-pong match as the firmware is tested and tweaked back and forth between the two. This of course leaves the end-user who would see and advise of issues to be stuck in the middle and ultimately at the end of the line for actual fixes.

The funniest thing I see out of all this is the interpretation from others(and even those using other vendors models) is that they think firmware code is entirely developed on each individual vendors dime. Not true at all as the trickledown effect applies in a very big way across the spectrum of vendors using these controllers.

Should also be obvious that OCZ is watched and followed more than any other SF vendor due to the transparency of their forum environment and the sheer volume of products sold(and having issue). They release firmware before all others(usually by several weeks) and the others watch to see where it goes before implementing them into their code as well. So, if one vendor finds an underlying issue in usage.. applies workarounds or tries a quickly implemented(weeks in "Sandforce time") firmware patch? ALL vendors are paying VERY close attention to what is being proven to work across that spectrum.

So in a way, OCZ actually leads the way in testing of these particular controllers(although it appears to be at the end users expense) as they are constantly in the habit of sticking their necks out further than others to get higher sales volume for these products. This of course leaves them open for ridicule and the assumption that others are doing much more in-house validation before releasing their fixes. Everyone is using everyone and ultimately Sandforce uses them all to further their product, is all this crap amounts to.

It is good one one side to have a vendor that pushes forward, but it's again a tradeoff: Do I want to wait like the harpies or take risk. And it's good for everyone that OCZ takes the first bite.

And it is very much fact that all issues with the SF-2281 controller was not squarely on OCZ's shoulders. I witnessed firsthand(through beta-testing these controllers), and all over the net(including other vendors), a multitude of Intel driver fixes(IME was HUGE in this regard).. improperly defaulted power mgmt setting workarounds.. along with board CMOS issues(hotplugging ON by default was a biggie here too as it told Intels drivers that the drives were external and removable) that were able to take unstable SF controlled drives and make them COMPLETELY stable. Many cases were remedied before the very first firmware fix was ever released with many of these workarounds. That should say something in itself as to the potential for other underlying issues being at play.

But wouldn't that have hurt ALL vendors and therefore increasing high RMA's across the board?
 
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