SSD vs Raptor

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sub.mesa

Senior member
Feb 16, 2010
611
0
0
Err, hard drives have been failing for as long as they've existed. If you were to ask a group of CTOs at Fortune 500 companies whether backing up is something that they only had to start doing ~7 years ago, they'd laugh you out of the room.
I guess you misunderstood. I meant that you only need backups to protect against URE for the last ~7 years, not before. Simple math of probability.

This has nothing to do with the need for backups to protect against disk failure. URE and disk failure should not be confused. A URE is commonly referred to as 'bad sector' but without being actually damaged physically and disk failure is where the disk stops working completely.

In the past, only the disk failure issue was prevalent and you had to protect against. But today you already need the horsepower of backups to protect against URE's unless you're using a modern storage system (ZFS, Btrfs).
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
I guess you misunderstood. I meant that you only need backups to protect against URE for the last ~7 years, not before. Simple math of probability.
Corruption to due other failures, like firmware errors, disk controller errors, cable errors, network errors, were even more common years ago, though. Remember back when you commonly had to DL files 2 and 3 times, if they were big? Chkdsk could think it fixed things, and ruin files. Bitrot could happen, with files on disk that weren't accessed often. Before CRCs being common on ATA, a bad connector could ruin data. Marginal PSUs still can cause silent corruption.

Also, today there is commonly an added USB controller to deal with, which adds an additional layer for failures to occur.

So, while URE alone may have been a significant change for servers, outside of that, it's mostly been the standard cycle of people assuming their devices will work perfectly forever, ignoring warnings, learning the hard way, and on and on. The failure mechanisms are changing, the kinds of failures are changing, but what the failures entail really aren't. URE will grow more and more common, as will sectors failing quickly and unrecoverably (as SnR lowers, the read head cannot extract as much info on subsequent reads to try to figure out what should have been there, making tools like gddrescue and spinrite less useful), but data corruption as a failure mode would become more of a concern with greater capacity anyway, even without URE, due to other failure mechanisms also occurring at rates relative to either resting time or data transferred.

URE is a serious RAID recovery issue, but just one in a long line of backup issues.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
Every storage type has failures. They fail in different ways. But any of them can and will fail without sufficient warning. SMART warnings on boot are great, but they only sometimes catch anything. With low vibration drives using fluid bearings, bearing damage can no longer be heard or felt. With SnR decreasing as density is increasing, there's less and less each gen for the controller to be able to recover by re-reading it automatically, or using gddrescue, spinrite, etc..

Where did I state that any form of storage is 100% reliable? Why are you arguing a point I never made?

Unfortunate as it may be, HDDs do up and die. One of my Samsungs from a few years ago, FI, even failed with a non-platter-related failure. Practically nothing could be gotten off it. The PC shutting down out of nowhere was the only sign, and all SMART values looked good, even afterwards. It would just drop out after a few MBs of reading, and some of what got transferred was corrupt. Dealing with other people's computers, and businesses' computers, sudden failures just aren't that uncommon, now. They used to be, but not any more. It's also become quite common that there will be warning, but the very act of trying to recover data gets into being FUBARed. Now, HDDs in general, seem to be more reliable than ever, if they don't die early, and are treated with care (such as not being in a notebook, for starters).

Again, wasting time arguing a point I never made. Where did I say traditional hard drives never die without warning? I even mentioned situations where they DID die with no opportunity to recover data.

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/170748-how-long-do-hard-drives-actually-live-for
Check it out. Based on their results, you could very well go through 20+ HDDs with no failures during their primary service lives, and not be an outlier (the wear they put on them in 3 years probably takes most of us 5+).

No idea how you came to your conclusion based on the link you provided. Is it possible to use 20 hard drives for 5 years with no failures? Absolutely, almost anything is possible, however you would be well off the center of the bell curve.

First off, there is no mention of what drives they use, except that they mention buying a bunch of external consumer grade drives and removing them from their enclosures. Whether they use just one model mainly or a variety of models/manufacturers has a tremendous impact on how meaningful their numbers are.

From the link, 5% of drives fail in the first year. That's 1 out of 20 fail in the first year. Then it levels off, and tumbles after 3 years, resulting in 22% failure rate by the end of year 4. So the failure rates say that 4 or 5 drives out of 20 are expected to fail by year 4, and you conclude that it would not be unusual to have 20 drives make 5 years?

Somebody posted the following in the comment section of the article:

In our data center, we have nearly 50 consumer-grade hard drives on nearly constantly. They are primarily 2Gig Western Digital green, with a mix of 1Gig and 2Gig WD black. We lose 1 or 2 hard drives per month, most of the time not a complete crash or non-start but very slow write speeds, on the order of 1/20th of their normal speed, due to constant retries and inability to store properly. At our rate (50 hard drives in use)/(1.5 failures per month) = estimated average life of 33.3 months per drive.

So, by their numbers, the average drive they use (with an actual brand and model attached) lasts less than 3 years. Such results make your 20 drive comment sound even more absurd. Also very important to note, is that they claim most of the time (NOT 100% of the time), the failed drive enters a cripple mode rather than just imploding.



But would there even be any value in pulling data off of a dying drive?

I had a hard drive start start to give off the usual warning signs back in September. After I got a replacement drive the next day and transferred all of the data off of it, I did a binary comparison of all of the data against a backup. It turns out that within less than 24 hours of the drive exhibiting symptoms of dying, over a quarter of my files had already been corrupted.

If I didn't have my backup, I would've lost a lot of important files, plain and simple. Having warning signs and being able to transfer the data off to another drive were ultimately meaningless given the extensive data corruption.

I don't know what kind of mission critical bit perfect required data you are storing on your home PC. But I don't think we could find anyone who wouldn't want to recover 75% of their family photos or videos or other personal files as opposed to recovering 0%. You post doesn't argue my point, it supports it.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
a good compromise is run the fast on fast ssd, run the slow n steady on reliable hard drive.

I've had more 15K SAS drive failures this year over the 100+ ssd (desktop 60/server 40) drives. the sas drives blew the feck up total devastation across all platters lol.

This. Keep your system files and frequently-used programs (web browsers, games you play a lot, etc.) on the SSD. Keep your photos/videos/music/pr0n on HDDs. I have a NAS full of hard drives that I keep for media and other important documents.

You can also back up individual Steam games onto HDD and re-import them into your SSD if you ever want to play them again, if you are afraid of re-downloading games.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
I FEEL U!!!! I was lookin forward to that even MORE!!!:|

Again, my boot time now is around 30 seconds. More important, I have zero interest in having a drive for rapid boot, and everything I want and need on some other volume!!!

Sorry, anyone who goes batdoody over 30 second boot time, I think, is in a rush to nowhere that matters.

It's just the not so unreasonable expectation that something that can supposedly do nearly 1 trillion operations per second.... you know.... actually be FASTER THAN I AM? I shouldn't have to wait, EVER.

It's the random hitching and hesitation and hourglasses and random non drawing "not responding" windows that piss me off whenever a HDD access light is SOLID. Can't stand it.

That said my current SSD systems boot to usable in around 4 seconds, but to be fair, my Raptor RAID0 systems were also so fast you would miss the XP logo if you blinked or the monitor took too long to change display modes.

I'm a fond believer of the instant on computing paradigm.
 

Virgorising

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2013
4,470
0
0
It's just the not so unreasonable expectation that something that can supposedly do nearly 1 trillion operations per second.... you know.... actually be FASTER THAN I AM? I shouldn't have to wait, EVER.

It's the random hitching and hesitation and hourglasses and random non drawing "not responding" windows that piss me off whenever a HDD access light is SOLID. Can't stand it.

That said my current SSD systems boot to usable in around 4 seconds, but to be fair, my Raptor RAID0 systems were also so fast you would miss the XP logo if you blinked or the monitor took too long to change display modes.

I'm a fond believer of the instant on computing paradigm.

Very good, objective post.

In this system, I recently got my fav animated "busy" cursor: tiny, adorable
mouse behind a wedge of cheese which he is eating away at. Since having gotten it, I have SEEN IT TWICE. That says a lot.

This is a very fast system, I have it configured meticulously, and with the addition of my not Raptor, but WD Black 32 cache HDD as the one I mostly boot into......it is as fast as I might ever need.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
Where did I state that any form of storage is 100% reliable? Why are you arguing a point I never made?
I'm not. I'm pointing out that expecting any storage device to more reliable, and choosing it based on that, is generally silly (aside from choices like not buying OCZ ).

Again, wasting time arguing a point I never made. Where did I say traditional hard drives never die without warning?
With traditional drives, even when they go bad, you usually get some sort of warning that give you enough time to at least get the data off.
I have not argued about never or always, except in the case of very old drives. Back in the day, pre-Barracuda Seagates (I think they were called Mercury), and the old Maxtors with poor quality castings that could slice into your fingers, would fail without warning, but I can't recall any others failing without warning, prior to manufacturers going to perpendicular recording, and it has definitely been an increasing proportion of failures I see (IE, I cannot say X out of Y drives are failing, but Z out of T failures that I come across are 'like so').

You were arguing that since SSDs typically fail abruptly, that HDDs should be used, because they usually don't. But, that's changing.
No idea how you came to your conclusion based on the link you provided. Is it possible to use 20 hard drives for 5 years with no failures? Absolutely, almost anything is possible, however you would be well off the center of the bell curve.
5% in the first year is 19 drives. 20 would be just off of the top of the curve, for the first 3 years, and they're being put into rather harsh, vibration-wise, usage. If 3+ is wear-out, consumers should easily get double that, typically, if not more.

First off, there is no mention of what drives they use, except that they mention buying a bunch of external consumer grade drives and removing them from their enclosures. Whether they use just one model mainly or a variety of models/manufacturers has a tremendous impact on how meaningful their numbers are.
Only assuming there's an extremely wide variance between models.

From the link, 5% of drives fail in the first year. That's 1 out of 20 fail in the first year. Then it levels off, and tumbles after 3 years, resulting in 22% failure rate by the end of year 4. So the failure rates say that 4 or 5 drives out of 20 are expected to fail by year 4, and you conclude that it would not be unusual to have 20 drives make 5 years?
Yes.
1. It should be expected that the failure rate, beyond factory-defect failures, should be lower in a lower-vibration environment.
2. If you only get 20 drives, that's a small enough sample size to easy get all good drives, while someone else gets more of the bad ones.

You see it all the time. One person has no failures. One person has had every HDD from manufacturer X fail quickly. One person has had that from manufacturer Y. And so on.

So, by their numbers, the average drive they use (with an actual brand and model attached) lasts less than 3 years. Such results make your 20 drive comment sound even more absurd. Also very important to note, is that they claim most of the time (NOT 100% of the time), the failed drive enters a cripple mode rather than just imploding.
If it's gradually wearing out, it should do just that. I don't have any data centers. SATA REs and ESes in lightly filled racks last basically forever, as far as I can tell. Usage like they are putting it through is going to be mechanically worse than desktop usage, or even usage in a server with few drives.

But try telling that to a friend of mine that just lost his OS drive unexpectedly, yesterday. All was fine, no Windows warnings, no SMART warnings on bootup, and he does keep track of his drives' health regularly, along with temps and such. The PC rebooted unexpectedly, and didn't see the drive. After reconnecting the SATA cables and power cables, and doing a cold boot, it saw it, and booted, end everything seemed OK. No errors. Before anything further could be done (like running a diag), it rebooted again, and shat itself: chkdsk automatically ran, and found sector after sector unreadable, just flying by. It's gone.

That doesn't happen every time. Tools to get data off before it's too late exist and work (I typically use gddrescue, and it can be a godsend), if the failure is slow enough, or of a nature that doesn't blow it up. But failures like that, that used to only happen with a nasty head crash, account for I'd say about half of the desktop failures I see, with newer drives, including that those that start up typically have no SMART warnings, or even high values for relevant SMART fields, prior to trying to recover data.

And now, we'll be getting SMR drives, soon, with half the complexity of SSDs built in, on top of the higher density and all its mechanical and analog signaling issues.

Meanwhile, take a recent oldish PC, with an ancient Maxtor drive, that was getting awfully slow. There were some red flags in the SMART values, and it was awfully loud, but it successfully read everything, so moving to a new drive was easy as could be. But, I'm sure the SnR on its platters are tens of times higher than anything you can buy, today, along with wider tracks to settle on. The mechanical tolerances alone are surely a couple orders of magnitude more loose.

I don't know what kind of mission critical bit perfect required data you are storing on your home PC. But I don't think we could find anyone who wouldn't want to recover 75% of their family photos or videos or other personal files as opposed to recovering 0%. You post doesn't argue my point, it supports it.
How many people are even going to think to have the ability to check CRCs (and where is a good NTFS replacement that does this for the user?)? Many would be stuck with useless data, not even know it, and back that up.

I'm a fond believer of the instant on computing paradigm.
If you haven't seen this already, you should: Bret Victor - The Future of Programming
 
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Virgorising

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2013
4,470
0
0
If you haven't seen this already, you should: Bret Victor - The Future of Programming

WOW. How fascinating was that?????? Brilliant, passionate, visionary guy who is promoting programmers cultivating EYES BY MARCEL PROUST and never getting stuck in arcane dogma.

And, of COURSE, CONCURRENT RATHER THAN SEQUENTIAL!!! It's the way the brain works, after all. All those bazillion synapses operating concurrently/integrated.... the hemispheres as well.
 
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