SSDs, are they worth it?

[shamus8888]

Hi all,

I am considering adding a 128GB (or maybe 80GB) SSD to my setup and run my OS (and maybe a few select games) from it.

I am just wondering if they are really worth the high price they demand. Will it really make a difference and are they really worth it? Also are they reliable?

I am just worried there will be a huge price drop soon and I will regret buying an expensive SSD.

 

[taltamir]

from what I can see, the intel is the only solid contender... yea the indilinx controller is nice and all, but it is an insanity to upgrade firmware on it, and the current firmware doesn't handle its internal background defragging very well (SSD defrag not regular defrag from OS... os defrag should be off). so when it settles into its real performance (After a few weeks) it is not as fast as people make it out to be. New firmwares for this controller keep on bringing it closer to intel's level, but also keep on adding new bugs and issues that need resolving, and unlike intel it erases all data when you upgrade the firmware.

I expect prices to keep on dropping at an insane rate and for performance to improve as well. in the next few months we are expecting new controllers, new process technologies for MLC/SLC chips, controllers that can use MLC chips from companies other than samsung who has a de facto monopoly for SSD chips manufacturing (all controllers expect the intel can only use samsung MLC, intel controller only intel MLC... other MLC makers are limited to making cellphone and video camera memory only... and look at the price of SDcards)

they are certainly reliable, i would say MORE reliable than spindle drives!

I would go to PCper.com and read about SSDs there, they are THE place for SSD reviews, they discovered the issue with intel drives (which resulted in the only firmware upgrade from intel, to fix that bug), they discovered that SSDs have a much higher performance when brand new which later settles down (it is a one time performance drop not a continues decline). etc...

Anandtech is also EXTREMELY reliable source, its just that anandtech doesn't HAVE all that many SSD articles... any SSD article on anandtech though is number 1 in quality.

 

[shamus8888]

Wow! Thanks for the detailed reply.

I really have my doubts to be honest as the choices are kind of limited and the price for decent storage space astronomical.

I guess I will just hold on for the moment then.

 

[VaultDweller]

New firmwares for this controller keep on bringing it closer to intel's level, but also keep on adding new bugs and issues that need resolving, and unlike intel it erases all data when you upgrade the firmware.

This is no longer necessary when flashing the Vertex with OCZ's newer firmware update tool.

If you aren't picky about voiding the warranty on the Falcon, it can be flashed with OCZ firmware (using the old updater) to appear as a Vertex, and can subsequently be flashed with the new OCZ updater to avoid data loss.

 

[deputc26]

Originally posted by: VaultDweller

New firmwares for this controller keep on bringing it closer to intel's level, but also keep on adding new bugs and issues that need resolving, and unlike intel it erases all data when you upgrade the firmware.

This is no longer necessary when flashing the Vertex with OCZ's newer firmware update tool.

If you aren't picky about voiding the warranty on the Falcon, it can be flashed with OCZ firmware (using the old updater) to appear as a Vertex, and can subsequently be flashed with the new OCZ updater to avoid data loss.

Wow good to know does this work with Ultradrive and Torqx as well?

 

[taltamir]

they actually use the exact same tool from indilinx... as in, the tool has the same CRC value!
And it DOES still erase all data AFAIK (although I could be wrong on this... confirmation anyone?), it doesn't require it to be a second drive with windows installed on another drive and flashed from within windows itself... you use a bootCD. and it shows a different company name based on the data in accessory files.

http://www.pcper.com/article.p...=733&type=expert&pid=4

if you have a really old firmware you have to upgrade it in steps, jumping through hoops... but later firmwares upgrade easier.

Still it is a pain and they still introduce issues, for example the latest firmware has some NEW issues with internal fragmentation.

http://www.pcper.com/article.p...733&type=expert&pid=13

 

[alcoholbob]

There is a boot CD flasher you can use on the Vertex although data retention is not guaranteed. It's also hidden in a forum thread somewhere that hasn't been bumped for out 3 weeks. For all practical purposes the flashing system is still destructive.

 

[Denithor]

Biggest thing on the horizon for SSD is the TRIM command with Windows 7.

I'm personally holding out at least until drives support this feature natively before I buy. The cost/GB doesn't really bother me as much as the drive not being able to maintain its "new" speed properly (which is why TRIM is needed).

 

[VaultDweller]

Originally posted by: taltamir
And it DOES still erase all data AFAIK (although I could be wrong on this... confirmation anyone?)

In bit-tech's experienceit does not.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: taltamir
from what I can see, the intel is the only solid contender... yea the indilinx controller is nice and all, but it is an insanity to upgrade firmware on it, and the current firmware doesn't handle its internal background defragging very well (SSD defrag not regular defrag from OS... os defrag should be off). so when it settles into its real performance (After a few weeks) it is not as fast as people make it out to be. New firmwares for this controller keep on bringing it closer to intel's level, but also keep on adding new bugs and issues that need resolving, and unlike intel it erases all data when you upgrade the firmware.

I expect prices to keep on dropping at an insane rate and for performance to improve as well. in the next few months we are expecting new controllers, new process technologies for MLC/SLC chips, controllers that can use MLC chips from companies other than samsung who has a de facto monopoly for SSD chips manufacturing (all controllers expect the intel can only use samsung MLC, intel controller only intel MLC... other MLC makers are limited to making cellphone and video camera memory only... and look at the price of SDcards)

they are certainly reliable, i would say MORE reliable than spindle drives!

I would go to PCper.com and read about SSDs there, they are THE place for SSD reviews, they discovered the issue with intel drives (which resulted in the only firmware upgrade from intel, to fix that bug), they discovered that SSDs have a much higher performance when brand new which later settles down (it is a one time performance drop not a continues decline). etc...

Anandtech is also EXTREMELY reliable source, its just that anandtech doesn't HAVE all that many SSD articles... any SSD article on anandtech though is number 1 in quality.

Bolded: Huh? I upgraded the latest firmware in 5 seconds through my usb drive. No data erased. Well, the old firmware might have been erased

Underlined: Just run wiper.exe to get back to real performance levels after a few weeks.Running it once a month won't wear our your drive that much faster

 

[taltamir]

They improved it alot in newer revisions. Upgrading from the one before latest version to the currently latest version on indilinx is reasonable... no different than other firmware upgrades.
previous upgrades were insane, and when I wrote this I was not yet informed on the improvements to the upgrade methology.

wiper.exe might not be significant in wearing out your drive, but it has many issues and it is a pain to manually run something like that. It also monopolizes the drive for a few hours while working.

 

[imported_reboot]

Indilinx is the manufacturer of the controller that's used in some of the newer SSD's by OCZ, Super Talent, etc. Therefore, firmware and utilities (TRIM tool) are provided by them.

The latest version of firmware doesn't wipe your drive of data. However, it must be applied in DOS mode which is why a bootup disk is required. It won't/can't run in Windows. Additionally, the upgrade utility requires your SSD be in IDE mode instead of others such as AHCI and RAID. I'll agree this can be painful. However, once you meet the criteria, the actual firmware upgrade takes a few seconds at most.

The TRIM tool provided by Indilinx to its OEM partners is simple to use and works quite well to maintain about 90% of the SSD's initial speed. It is excellent when your drive is in IDE mode and works pretty well when it's in AHCI. The only caveat is you must run it from the beginning. Otherwise, it may be very slow to run when you first execute it. In other words, if you perform a clean install in AHCI mode, be sure to begin running the TRIM tool shortly after. If you wait a few weeks later to run the tool, it may take hours to complete your drive. On my drive (60GB SSD in IDE mode), the TRIM tool finishes in a few seconds.

The last bit of information I want to add is there is another function separate from TRIM that returns the drive to about 70-80% of initial speeds. It is a feature in the newer firmware and it is something Samsung controllers already have. This function runs during idle and it performs some type of drive cleanup. Information on this is still vague.

 

[Denithor]

Wow, second post after four years. That's some impressive lurking!!



My point is - I don't want to have to run a TRIM command on my drive every month or so. I want Windows to issue the command to the drive with each deletion and have the drive process the change correctly so performance doesn't degrade over time.

Other advantages to waiting a bit - these drives are increasing in capacity very quickly and the cost/GB is also coming down rapidly.

 

[imported_reboot]

Originally posted by: Denithor
Wow, second post after four years. That's some impressive lurking!!

Thanks! I swear I've posted more. Perhaps Anandtech performs some type of purging of posts.

Anyway, you make a valid point. Native TRIM should be supported when Win7 is released. However, whether or not the current "new" SSD's will support Win7 TRIM is a question that remains. From what I gather, TRIM isn't a finalized standard so details are still being worked out. When it is finalized, manufacturers must release new firmware to support if it their current implementation is out of spec.

There is an advantage of waiting for tech to mature I suppose. In the meantime, I'm enjoying my SSD. It has made a mediocre laptop into one that is relatively speedy for my applications. I will wait for Win7 TRIM support before upgrading my other PC's.

 

[aamsel]

I have read many places that TRIM would not be included in Windows 7 until at least the first service pack.

It is certainly not in the release candidate code.

 

[taltamir]

The latest version of firmware doesn't wipe your drive of data. However, it must be applied in DOS mode which is why a bootup disk is required. It won't/can't run in Windows. Additionally, the upgrade utility requires your SSD be in IDE mode instead of others such as AHCI and RAID. I'll agree this can be painfu

Nobody is complaining about THAT...

the previous version required you to:
1. put a jumper (physically) in the drive.
2. boot into a 32bit windows xp or 32bit win vista running on a DIFFERENT DRIVE with the indilinx drive as a SECONDARY drive in IDE MODE and then it completely erased all data on the drive.

so if you only have linux machines, a single computer, or a single drive laptop you were screwed. You likely had to get a spare drive, install a spare copy of windows 32bit, upgrade SSD, format spare drive, reinstall windows on SSD.

a self contained dos boot CD is REALLY not anything problematic.

 

[imported_reboot]

Originally posted by: taltamir
Nobody is complaining about THAT...

the previous version required you to:
1. put a jumper (physically) in the drive.
2. boot into a 32bit windows xp or 32bit win vista running on a DIFFERENT DRIVE with the indilinx drive as a SECONDARY drive in IDE MODE and then it completely erased all data on the drive.

so if you only have linux machines, a single computer, or a single drive laptop you were screwed. You likely had to get a spare drive, install a spare copy of windows 32bit, upgrade SSD, format spare drive, reinstall windows on SSD.

People who actually have the drive do in fact complain about it, but you wouldn't know. If you happen to be on older firmware (first or second release), your issue is twofold. As you mentioned, you must upgrade with the jumper (eng. mode) as an intermediary step before you can upgrade to the latest version. Ouch!!

 

[Rubycon]

Wouldn't a BART disk work?

 

[imported_reboot]

Yes, but BartPE only works on the earlier versions of firmware (non-DOS based). The previous versions required the jumper to get the drive to the proper mode and then running the upgrade utility from Doze as stated by taltmir.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: aamsel
I have read many places that TRIM would not be included in Windows 7 until at least the first service pack.

It is certainly not in the release candidate code.

I don't know where you've got this info because everything I've read says Win 7 supports TRIM.
e.g.
http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archi...-state-drives-and.aspx

"# re: Support and Q&A for Solid-State Drives
@Chris_7, DarinMS:
Yes, Trim is already in the Win7 RC.
Trim is enabled by default but can be turned off. You can use the "fsutil behavior query|set DisableDeleteNotify" command to query or set Trim.
Wednesday, May 06, 2009 3:41 PM by craigbarkhouse "

 

[imported_reboot]

Originally posted by: CSMR

Originally posted by: aamsel
I have read many places that TRIM would not be included in Windows 7 until at least the first service pack.

It is certainly not in the release candidate code.

I don't know where you've got this info because everything I've read says Win 7 supports TRIM.
e.g.
http://blogs.msdn.com/e7/archi...-state-drives-and.aspx

Great article! Thanks. By the way, even though Trim is in Win7 RC, it's important to note that SSD manufacturers don't support it yet. A firmware upgrade is required. Perhaps they are waiting until we get closer to Win7 launch...or until MS finalizes Trim support.

 

[taltamir]

Actually it is most likely that they need to write the algorithms to make use of it. TRIM is NOT a COMMAND ordering the drive to delete a page.

TRIM is just letting a drive controller KNOW that the specific area is free, however the drive now has to use some sort of algorithm to decide which areas it is going to physically free (if it does them all, it will run out of writes too fast).
There needs to be a strategy of keeping a certain amount of "free space" for writing, and keeping a list of known "trimmed" pages for future cleanup.

This also means that different companies will have different trim performance, and that trim performance could increase with subsequent updates to the drive.

 

[Fishead]

I have a question about all this jump to RAID systems and SSD drives.I know its the latest craze and a lot of people are jumping into it.But tell me if I am wrong in my assuming that all your gaining is loading time for levels in games and Windows booting up?
Is my assumption correct?I can see in hard drive intensive apps on servers and stuff you need it for but the average PC builder?
I know when I wasn't as educated in building PCs I build a RAID system as you can see in my signature.I no longer have that system.
Can anyone tell me why they are doing it and what they think they will get out of it?What do you guys use your systems for and does it help what you are trying to get from it.I am curious.

Richard

 

[CSMR]

PROs of SSDs: fast OS boot, fast app loading, system responsiveness
noise-free, low power, small
Major performance difference from RAID mechanical drives is latency; hard drives have mechanical latency.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: reboot
...SSD manufacturers don't support it yet.

Anyone know when to expect TRIM support? I haven't come across any info on this.