Stand for flag, kneel for cross

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,782
1,540
126
I saw this story and was surprised people are wearing this shirt without feeling they are being contradictory. I find the shirt offensive because it's contrary to any Christian message I know. But on top of that I'm not even sure what the shirt portends to say. If kneeling is an ultimate deference to God, how is it an insult to the flag? Is this the height of conservative cognitive dissonance of am I missing something. Someone help me understand what this shirt is trying to say.


http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/10/17/woman-defends-stand-flag-kneel-cross-shirt-nbc-news-reporter
 
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BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,436
11,761
136
I’ll stand for the flag...but I ain’t kneeling for someone’s mythical sky fairies....unless/until I actually see one...and I don’t do drugs, so...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
The kneeling was never the part conservatives had a problem with. They part they didn’t like was that a black guy was doing it to protest racial injustice. Kaepernick picked about the least offensive protest you could possibly imagine and conservatives still freaked out. The only black protests conservatives will accept are ones that are easily ignored.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
136
The kneeling was never the part conservatives had a problem with. They part they didn’t like was that a black guy was doing it to protest racial injustice. Kaepernick picked about the least offensive protest you could possibly imagine and conservatives still freaked out. The only black protests conservatives will accept are ones that are easily ignored.
They were offended by the fact that they had to watch those protests before watching football games when they were supposed to be at church.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,821
29,574
146
There is a significant population of evangelical pseudo christians that somehow--through illiteracy, ignorance...whatever, I don't know, see it as perfectly reasonable to place the US flag up behind the altar next to the flag of their particular denomination.

This is, essentially, a gross offense to acceptable theological precedent. But of course it has been going on for generations, particularly this current generation, so there would be a common: "Well it's always been that way and so why shouldn't it and who are you tell me that my Gawd hates Mericuh!" response to the suggestion that the flag of the United States has no business being associated with any church, any congregation, in the dissemination of their theology.

This fundamental rejection of the more basic tenants of Christianity (and the foundation of this country) is seen by many self-described "patriotic Christians" as fundamentally normal, when it is anything but.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
11,573
5,096
136
There is a significant population of evangelical pseudo christians that somehow--through illiteracy, ignorance...whatever, I don't know, see it as perfectly reasonable to place the US flag up behind the altar next to the flag of their particular denomination.

This is, essentially, a gross offense to acceptable theological precedent. But of course it has been going on for generations, particularly this current generation, so there would be a common: "Well it's always been that way and so why shouldn't it and who are you tell me that my Gawd hates Mericuh!" response to the suggestion that the flag of the United States has no business being associated with any church, any congregation, in the dissemination of their theology.

This fundamental rejection of the more basic tenants of Christianity (and the foundation of this country) is seen by many self-described "patriotic Christians" as fundamentally normal, when it is anything but.


Well, you may have a point with some variations of Christianity, but to lump all denominations of religions into that is just incorrect.

For instance, take the Catholics. Here's what and why Catholics, for the most part in America, display the U.S. flag......

Surprisingly to many, there are no regulations of any kind governing the display of flags in Roman Catholic Churches. Neither the Code of Canon law, nor the liturgical books of the Roman rite comment on this practice. As a result, the question of whether and how to display the American flag in a Catholic Church is left up to the judgment of the diocesan bishop, who in turn often delegates this to the discretion of the pastor.

The origin of the display of the American flag in many parishes in the United States appears have its origins in the offering of prayers for those who served during the Second World War (1941-1945). At that time, many bishops and pastors provided a book of remembrance near the American flag, requesting prayers for loved ones – especially those serving their country in the armed forces – as a way of keeping before the attention of the faithful the needs of military families. This practice has since been confirmed in many places during the Korean, Viet Nam and Iraqi conflicts.
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-wor...ent/display-of-flags-in-catholic-churches.cfm

Far from being ultranationalists, the Catholics are.

The Episcopals do much the same thing....no requirements for flag display; widespread U.S. flag display began around WWII.

Evangelical Lutherans also have no requirement to display the U.S. flag in their churches, yet most do. Why? Nice treatise on it.....

https://download.elca.org/ELCA Resource Repository/Are_flags_appropriate_in_church.pdf

I fully appreciate your stance, but many of the more mainstream religions in the U.S. do display the American flag and not out of a sense of nationalism or trying to "Christianize America."

C'est la vie......
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
I'm offended that you're offended that they're offended at others doing offensive things.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,726
2,501
126
Methodists don't kneel. I guess that means GWB and Dick Cheney are anti-American pagans.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
Jokes aside, it depends on the viewpoint.

Viewpoint #1 - I think like some traditions, the reasons why we do things the way we do tend to get lost over the generations. For many Americans, you stand for the flag because it's a way of demonstrating the ability to rise above differences. Not everything in America is squeaky clean (never has been), and politics is divisive as ever, but everyone can come together on the ideals of what the flag represents: Freedom, personal responsibility, civil liberty, and tolerance. People get offended when you don't stand for it, because it's those ideals that, despite our dark past, have slowly lead the charge over the generations for a better society. To them, it's like slashing your own tires and counterproductive to what you're attempting to accomplish.

Viewpoint #2 - I'm sure it also has a lot to do with our protestant roots. The old Anglican tradition is that you sit for instruction, bow for prayer (or reverence), and stand for praise. You bow to the cross, because it's often accompanied by prayer, and it's a common tradition to bow to your king. We stand for the flag because it's always accompanied by the singing of the national anthem, which in itself is a form of praise. It's just what you...do. From that viewpoint, whether you stand or kneel for the flag technically shouldn't matter.

Both viewpoints are correct in their own way.

At the end of the day though, it comes down to this; you cannot influence what you don't honor. No one gets offended when you stand for the American flag, but lots of people are offended when you don't. And that's where you have to ask yourself, "What is the more honoring route?" While a great financial move for Kaepernick since Nike is now financing him (and probably more than he ever made with the NFL), one has to ask, is it actually producing change for what he took a kneel for?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,825
49,526
136
Jokes aside, it depends on the viewpoint.

Viewpoint #1 - I think like some traditions, the reasons why we do things the way we do tend to get lost over the generations. For many Americans, you stand for the flag because it's a way of demonstrating the ability to rise above differences. Not everything in America is squeaky clean (never has been), and politics is divisive as ever, but everyone can come together on the ideals of what the flag represents: Freedom, personal responsibility, civil liberty, and tolerance. People get offended when you don't stand for it, because it's those ideals that, despite our dark past, have slowly lead the charge over the generations for a better society. To them, it's like slashing your own tires and counterproductive to what you're attempting to accomplish.

Viewpoint #2 - I'm sure it also has a lot to do with our protestant roots. The old Anglican tradition is that you sit for instruction, bow for prayer (or reverence), and stand for praise. You bow to the cross, because it's often accompanied by prayer, and it's a common tradition to bow to your king. We stand for the flag because it's always accompanied by the singing of the national anthem, which in itself is a form of praise. It's just what you...do. From that viewpoint, whether you stand or kneel for the flag technically shouldn't matter.

Both viewpoints are correct in their own way.

At the end of the day though, it comes down to this; you cannot influence what you don't honor. No one gets offended when you stand for the American flag, but lots of people are offended when you don't. And that's where you have to ask yourself, "What is the more honoring route?" While a great financial move for Kaepernick since Nike is now financing him (and probably more than he ever made with the NFL), one has to ask, is it actually producing change for what he took a kneel for?

So if kneeling during the national anthem is still too offensive can you describe a way you think black people should protest that would both get attention and be permissible?

From my experience people just want black people to protest in quiet ways that can be easily ignored, which defeats the purpose.
 
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hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,654
10,517
136
Methodists don't kneel. I guess that means GWB and Dick Cheney are anti-American pagans.
Yea, that was a plus. I hated it when I went to an Episcopal or Catholic service. I felt sorry for old people. Up and down and up and down. We'd just half to stand up sometimes from a seating position. Memories.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
I saw this story and was surprised people are wearing this shirt without feeling they are being contradictory. I find the shirt offensive because it's contrary to any Christian message I know. But on top of that I'm not even sure what the shirt portends to say. If kneeling is an ultimate deference to God, how is it an insult to the flag? Is this the height of conservative cognitive dissonance of am I missing something. Someone help me understand what this shirt is trying to say.


http://insider.foxnews.com/2018/10/17/woman-defends-stand-flag-kneel-cross-shirt-nbc-news-reporter

Didnt Kaepernick specifically say he was kneeling to protest America's injustice?
 
Jan 25, 2011
16,634
8,778
146
Didnt Kaepernick specifically say he was kneeling to protest America's injustice?


"To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

That was right after the game he first sat for the anthem for. This has always been about unarmed black people being killed by police.
 
Reactions: darkswordsman17

MavericK96

Member
Mar 21, 2009
59
40
101
Didnt Kaepernick specifically say he was kneeling to protest America's injustice?

Not sure if those were the exact words used, but it was clear from the start to anyone with half a brain this was the reasoning behind it. Yet, I have heard so much bullshit from the right, such as, "They don't even have a cause! I don't even know what they're kneeling for!"

If you don't know, that's your own ignorance at play. It's been stated many, many times.
 
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