Stand for flag, kneel for cross

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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
Sure, but how is protesting injustice in America insulting America? It's about the most American thing you can possibly do.

It would depend on specifically what he was protesting.

I can sort of see both sides here. I think that if we had just let them kneel, and if trump hadn't shot his mouth off about it, things would calm down. But of course that's not possible. We need to have a neverending "national conversation" about it where no one agrees on what the whole debate is about, meaning that we expend all this emotional energy and end up back where we started.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
1,432
142
106
So if kneeling during the national anthem is still too offensive can you describe a way you think black people should protest that would both get attention and be permissible?

From my experience people just want black people to protest in quiet ways that can be easily ignored, which defeats the purpose.

On the contrary, that strategy worked perfectly for Martin Luther King, and to great and long-lasting effect.

But to answer your first question, if you want to protest that would both get attention and be permissible, finding the right medium would be a good place to start. There are three major factors though that, in my opinion, hurt Kaepernick's efforts:
  1. The NFL audience as a whole is slightly Republican leaning where these actions are a bit less tolerated. Had Kaepernick been a professional basketball player though, his protest would have probably been much more positively received. On the other hand, I can guarantee that had Kaepernick done this in college football, professional golf, or NASCAR, he would have been thrown out of the league almost immediately. Instead, Kaepernick never stopped to think that the majority of his audience would never, ever see his protest as none other than a desecrating display of the flag and the national anthem. And there we go to point #2:
  2. Kaepernick's move is peaceful alright, but put the focus of his protest on the wrong thing. Martin Luther King was successful in his protest not just because they were peaceful, but because it highlighted the immense struggle that black Americans were facing at the time. People watching the news didn't see protestors disrespecting the flag, breaking the law, or destroying property. They saw protestors being blasted by a fire hose, beaten, jailed, and torn asunder by racists crowds. It worked because it exposed the rotten core of racism during that era, and people changed. This, I think, is the #1 contributing reason why we see such a radical reduction of racism with the boomer generation of white America.
  3. Our very obvious commander-in-chief who can't put his cell phone down and stop tweeting. Trump's tweeting simply fueled points #1 and #2.
At the end of the day, I question the real impact Kaepernick had with these protests. And because it was seen as such a divisive act, I doubt he'll ever step out on the football field again.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,812
49,499
136
On the contrary, that strategy worked perfectly for Martin Luther King, and to great and long-lasting effect.

But to answer your first question, if you want to protest that would both get attention and be permissible, finding the right medium would be a good place to start. There are three major factors though that, in my opinion, hurt Kaepernick's efforts:
  1. The NFL audience as a whole is slightly Republican leaning where these actions are a bit less tolerated. Had Kaepernick been a professional basketball player though, his protest would have probably been much more positively received. On the other hand, I can guarantee that had Kaepernick done this in college football, professional golf, or NASCAR, he would have been thrown out of the league almost immediately. Instead, Kaepernick never stopped to think that the majority of his audience would never, ever see his protest as none other than a desecrating display of the flag and the national anthem. And there we go to point #2:
  2. Kaepernick's move is peaceful alright, but put the focus of his protest on the wrong thing. Martin Luther King was successful in his protest not just because they were peaceful, but because it highlighted the immense struggle that black Americans were facing at the time. People watching the news didn't see protestors disrespecting the flag, breaking the law, or destroying property. They saw protestors being blasted by a fire hose, beaten, jailed, and torn asunder by racists crowds. It worked because it exposed the rotten core of racism during that era, and people changed. This, I think, is the #1 contributing reason why we see such a radical reduction of racism with the boomer generation of white America.
  3. Our very obvious commander-in-chief who can't put his cell phone down and stop tweeting. Trump's tweeting simply fueled points #1 and #2.
At the end of the day, I question the real impact Kaepernick had with these protests. And because it was seen as such a divisive act, I doubt he'll ever step out on the football field again.

From what I've read polling approval of Colin Kaepernick and polling approval of Martin Luther King are pretty close to one another, ranging from modestly better in King's favor early on in his civil rights career and sharply worse than Kaepernick's later on. MLK was not a very popular guy in his day. It seems like King was able to do much better when he focused on the South alone. Once he started mentioning that racism was a national problem his popularity went in the toilet as racist northerners had little interest in accepting that.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...on-donald-trump-disapproval-column/482242002/

Regardless I think you're describing the situation in the 60's pretty inaccurately as people watching the news routinely saw protesters breaking the law and destroying property. In the time leading up to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 there were plenty of peaceful protests, but there were also plenty of riots. In fact, the riots were one of the specific things that led Kennedy to propose the civil rights act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_riot_of_1963

Malcolm X's evaluation is largely confirmed by modern scholarship. Nicholas Bryant, author of the most comprehensive study of President Kennedy's decision-making on civil rights policy, notes that during the predominantly nonviolent Birmingham campaign, Kennedy refused to make a commitment to forceful intervention or new legislation. He resisted the influence of the powerful, internationally publicized photograph of a police dog tearing into a black youth. The legislative situation was hopeless, he claimed, and he did not think the events in Birmingham would influence the voting intentions of a single lawmaker ... While Kennedy recognized the potent symbolic value of the [police dog] image, he was unwilling to counteract it with a symbolic gesture of his own."[39] Bryant concludes:

It was the black-on-white violence of May 11 - not the publication of the startling photograph a week earlier – that represented the real watershed in Kennedy's thinking, and the turning point in administration policy. Kennedy had grown used to segregationist attacks against civil rights protesters. But he – along with his brother and other administration officials – was far more troubled by black mobs running amok.

I don't know what caused boomers' changing racial attitudes although I think that has more to do with declining acceptance of overt racism while cover racism is alive and well. I don't know a ton about the civil rights movement but there does seem to be a case that exactly the approach you reject is what was really effective.

As far as Kaepernick goes his audience wasn't football watchers, his audience was the whole country. In the end I'm still waiting on a way that Kaepernick could protest that wouldn't be rejected or very easily ignored. Nobody seems to be able to come up with one.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
The whole kneel/stand thing never made sense unless you view it through the lens of self righteous faux outrage.

Nothing stemming from that dumpster fire is going to make sense either.

That makes sense. I understood when I first heard Kap refused to stand for the anthem, but then I found out he was kneeling, which is a display of respect, not sitting.

But I suppose if the insult is to God because kneeling should be reserved for him, that makes sense. Of course, In don't think I've ever heard that is the complaint, so we are back to square 1.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,181
15,776
126
So if kneeling during the national anthem is still too offensive can you describe a way you think black people should protest that would both get attention and be permissible?

From my experience people just want black people to protest in quiet ways that can be easily ignored, which defeats the purpose.
Preferrably hanging on a tree
/S
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,782
1,540
126
But I suppose if the insult is to God because kneeling should be reserved for him, that makes sense. Of course, In don't think I've ever heard that is the complaint, so we are back to square 1.

Football players generally "take a knee" during practice when a coach is talking, at least we did when I played football.
 

DisarmedDespot

Senior member
Jun 2, 2016
590
591
136
Real kicker is the Philadelphia Eagles, which might have the most openly religious players of any team in the NFL, still got Trump's ire. He started a spat with them and claimed they were disrespecting the flag by kneeling during the anthem. Except it wasn't during the anthem, and they were praying.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Real kicker is the Philadelphia Eagles, which might have the most openly religious players of any team in the NFL, still got Trump's ire. He started a spat with them and claimed they were disrespecting the flag by kneeling during the anthem. Except it wasn't during the anthem, and they were praying.
So they were disrespecting Jesus instead of the flag? Sad.
 
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